Another SAV Thread

[angus9259]

I can't help myself. Their bulls look amazing. Similar to Coleman. EPDs are miserable (compared to GAR). It's almost like there's two different worlds evolving. GAR and their cooperators and EPDs and SAV type with, well, meat, azz and BULL. If you didn't have a computer and just had your eyeballs and a scale, how could you not go with Coleman / SAV? Ironically, in this year's sale book, SAV opens with customers bragging about their ability to make choice too - and an attempt to push people away from their computers to "real world" cattle. Keep in mind, I say all this with a Gardner bull out here at my place now - but I'm starting to think it's because I'm a numbers nerd. GAR numbers say they should rule in wean weight and yearling weight - SAV numbers actually rule regardless of the EPDs.

I know - it's all about feed - who gets more. Maybe. I really don't know.

 

[Ebenezer]

Neither of them matter to me in the real world and with real dollars.

 

[SBMF 2015]

GAR is all about carcass. But their cows don’t have any staying power.
SAV has numbers possibly to good to be true.

 

[gizmom]

Here is an idea take a picture of a SAV bull and compare it to a waygu
Do the same with a GAR bull I think you will see the direction the carcass bulls are headed. Now research the maternal ability of the Waygu. Nuff said just food for thought.Waygu bull

SAV Bull

 

[NIdahoShorthorns]

@gizmom Which bulls' steers sell for the most on the rail?

 

[gizmom]

@gizmom Which bulls' steers sell for the most on the rail?

 

[elkwc]

IMO the GAR cattle of Henry were functional cattle. Today they have been selected for a single trait. They are not functional. I have had a little of their genetics. Only have one cow left. I try to stay away from that prefix.
I base my opinions on genetics based on my experience and that of reputable breeders I trust. Have seen SAV genetics work in different types of environments. From arid to hot and humid environments. We have found some of their genetics that work here. They are easy fleshing and have good growth. Regardless of the genetics I know I won’t see the extreme high weaning weights and yearling weights. What I look for is how they compare to the other genetics in our herd. Are they higher, equal or lower. I have found numbers to be of no benefit in selection of a young virgin bull. I look at actual weights which SAV provides. Like all breeders we have found some of SAV genetics work for us and some don’t. We try to stay away from Charlo Hebert. We have seen too many docility issues for us.

 

[gizmom]

Oh I have no idea this is a hypothetical as you know so many variables. How long on feed are you breeding to retain ownership to harvest or selling at weaning. I personally love the SAV and Coleman genetics because I love the phenotype of their cattle and am not a fan of the phenotype of the high carcass cattle. I breed for what I like and feel everyone else should do the same. There isn’t a wrong type there is just the type an individual likes and if a person likes the GAR type I wish them the very best and hope they do the same for me.

 

[elkwc]

View attachment 54403Here is an idea take a picture of a SAV bull and compare it to a waygu
Do the same with a GAR bull I think you will see the direction the carcass bulls are headed. Now research the maternal ability of the Waygu. Nuff said just food for thought.View attachment 54400Waygu bull
View attachment 54401
SAV Bull

We had a grandson of Sunrise. He was sired by a top ET son of Sunrise. The bull we had was out of a good cow. He looked like the picture of the Waygu above. Not enough bone and light muscled. Not what works here.

 

[gizmom]

Breeding for one trait can become a train wreck I don’t look at numbers and the boss will remind me that you need to at least peek at them and he is correct. I try my best to breed for balance and believe that if you do that the end results will be pleasing.

 

[angus9259]

Breeding for one trait can become a train wreck I don't look at numbers and the boss will remind me that you need to at least peek at them and he is correct. I try my best to breed for balance and believe that if you do that the end results will be pleasing.View attachment 54436

Looks like my Gardner bull

 

[artesianspringsfarm]

Looks like my Gardner bull

That seems unfortunate since the picture she shared is a quite feminine heifer.

 

[Ky hills]

That seems unfortunate since the picture she shared is a quite feminine heifer.

The feminine bull look is something that concerns me not just in Angus but with other breeds too. A bull should look masculine and heifer/cow should look feminine.
I reckon that feminine bull look is a byproduct of breeding for carcass quality and or clean made animals for the showring.

 

[SBMF 2015]

The feminine bull look is something that concerns me not just in Angus but with other breeds too. A bull should look masculine and heifer/cow should look feminine.
I reckon that feminine bull look is a byproduct of breeding for carcass quality and or clean made animals for the showring.

Feminine looking bulls is also a result of calving ease.
Feminine, refined looking cows have their place.
I prefer big, deep bodied, broody type cows

And bulls that look like bulls. Soggy, belly dragging, meat wagons.

 

[DCortes]

Neither of them matter to me in the real world and with real dollars.

I was just looking at a SAV flyer. Lots of weaning weights above 1000lbs. Good looking animals for sure until you start thinking what kind of cow do you need to wean a 1000lb calf.

 

[angus9259]

So what is the answer to the question? What kind of a cow does it take to wean 1000 lbs? Again, in the salebook, SAV had testimonials re their carcass value from what seem like actual producers. If you can get 1000 lb weaned calves AND carcass value despite what the numbers say, why not?

 

[simme]

1000# weaning weights come from pairs on a high level of nutrition. They don't make pounds from air and water alone.

 

[W.B.]

So what is the answer to the question? What kind of a cow does it take to wean 1000 lbs? Again, in the salebook, SAV had testimonials re their carcass value from what seem like actual producers. If you can get 1000 lb weaned calves AND carcass value despite what the numbers say, why not?

If your goal is to wean 1000 lb calves then you should follow the environment and genetics of those who are already doing it. Not a big mystery really.

 

[DCortes]

So what is the answer to the question? What kind of a cow does it take to wean 1000 lbs? Again, in the salebook, SAV had testimonials re their carcass value from what seem like actual producers. If you can get 1000 lb weaned calves AND carcass value despite what the numbers say, why not?

The answer is a SAV elite cow. I don't think a commercial 1400 lb cow without supplement will wean you a 1000 lb calf. You may try a 2000lb cow fed TMR in a corral the whole year + some creep feed for the calf and you could get close. Not sure you would want to castrate a 1000lb weaning calf, but if you did, that would fetch you what $2,200 in this record market? Not sure you would break even at that. You could have that 2000lb cow rough it out in the range, out here I am pretty sure that cow won't have a calf by her side come branding day. Heck, you may not even find the cow. Beyond EPD discussions people tend to think it is 50% genes 50% environment. Corral the top 1% and bottom 1% of registered cows in the nation and stop feeding them. Sure some may last longer, but they are all going to starve. Ranching today is about matching the genetics to the environment. A seedstock producer can afford to produce 1000lb weaning weights, because those bulls sell for a lot more than $2,200. For most commercial operations, chasing 1000lb calves is an excellent way of going broke. Unless they are very docile, then you can open a petting zoo.

 

[Ky hills]

Like has been said by simme those 1000lb weaning weights don’t just happen.
I don’t know anything about North Dakota forages, but I’m sure those particular cattle have aces to the best forages that can be attained. Summer grazing is probably the best and hay, is probably of the highest nutritional quality.
Cows and calves are probably all very familiar with a feed truck too.
I could not expect to replicate that even with pretty good pastures several months out of the year, the lower quality late cut fescue hay that we feed during the winter is largely just a filler, so I supplement the cows with some feed. Our calves don’t receive any creep feed only what few bites they get eating beside the cows.
Years ago when I had registered Charolais, I managed to get 850-900lbs weaning weights on bull calves and most of the heifer calves were over 750 to around 800lbs one year. Two heifer calves that had been pretty sick as young calves weighed lighter, one 720 and one 670.
The caveat was that I was still building my herd that was the second year and didn’t have many cows at the time, so they had ample grass and at that time I creep fed my calves as well as supplemented the cows with a little grain.
As the herd grew those weights dropped and especially when I stopped creep feeding. The weaning weights for bulls went to a little above 700-800 with most being in the middle.
I have not been able to get many Angus sired calves registered, commercial, to wean off over 550lbs