Animal Rights Initiatives A Little Scary

[auctionboy]

Most people understand that animal comfort adds to there production levels, with that said trying to please someone like this that even claims they know when an animal is happy is not any farmers concern. Be careful when trying to take away other peoples rights. It is a slippery slope when you talk about legislation and government control and in a few years someone dumber then you may try passing even stricter regulations wich might effect your opperation. You are the type of person that things everything they think is the truth and 100% correct! Also just because someone puts a humanly raised sticker on something in a store doesn't prove anything. If it says organic that is legislated, but something as judgemental as humanly(which the route of the word is HUMAN) is not regulated. Also it is nice that you raise one sow in this manner, try it with 300 so we don't starve!

 

[badaxemoo]

I used the term dumb animals as in a lower evolutionary plane then humans, I didn;t say they were stupid.
But that get's into a whole philisophical deal and I won;t go there.

dun

I know that. It just makes me nervous when people use the word "dumb animal". If you look at the current state of the environment, there's really only one dumb animal on the planet.

Much of our culture's attitudes about animals derive from biblical dominion, but somehow along the line we lost the meaning of stewardship. Didn't some enlightenment philosophers (Descartes?) even theorize that animals were basically machines that couldn't experience pain?

And why won't you "go there" when it comes to philosophy? I'm not trying to be argumentative here, but I'm always interested in people's attitudes about why they raise livestock - whether for pleasure or profit.

I bet your herd would qualify for any of the proposed humane standards that are out there. Don't let the extremists in PETA worry you too much!

 

[hraz]

The term "humane", in reference to food animals, is being define now. The public has been neglectful in their responsibility to know what they are eating. That is changing.

http://www.certifiedhumane.com/
Not a government agency-the governments endorsement is questionable on a good day. The requirements are not more than most good producers are doing anyway. But, cattle have an easier life in the production chain than the average gestating sow.

I ask again......Is it wrong or unreasonable to require that producers keep a pregnant sow in a pen big enough to turn around in? No one wants anymore government regulation than necessary. If the problem did not exist the law would not be necessary. Self-regulation failed here.

 

[Alice]

You are the type of person that things everything they think is the truth and 100% correct!

And it's the pot calling the kettle black quotes like this that make me real nervous...and not just a little bit mad. :x

Alice

 

[hraz]

auctionboy

someone dumber then you

I was more offended by this one. No need to get petty. An intelligent discussion by adults is always a good thing regardless of the opinions. We all have more to learn about everything. Each time something is said that I cannot immediately answer I have to research the subject even more. I simply have not learned anything that changes my mind on the right and wrong of it. I am however more concerned about the financial aspect of the matter when it comes to the producer. Therefore progress is made in some direction. I have never been 100% right nor have I met anyone that has.

 

[auctionboy]

I can't imagine sows being in a crate that they can't turn around in having much circulation and over all not being very healthy. I don't think those sows would have a long productive life so it would seem that it wouldn't be economical and the problem would solve it's self. Obviously this still happens, but it doesn't make sense that these sows would make any money. As for Alice I have already told her I don't like her and how she chimes in against everything I write, never making any valid points might I add.

 

[auctionboy]

The thing I am really against is people that don't raise animals telling people that do how to do it. I am refering to the voted on legislation. Also I doubt most veal is raised in such a bad way as most people believe.

 

[badaxemoo]

Most people understand that animal comfort adds to there production levels, with that said trying to please someone like this that even claims they know when an animal is happy is not any farmers concern.

I knew I was going to get ridiculed for this. But anyone I know that spends time around livestock can read an animal - particularly one they've owned for a time - by watching it. If you can't, you aren't paying attention.

Be careful when trying to take away other peoples rights. It is a slippery slope when you talk about legislation and government control and in a few years someone dumber then you may try passing even stricter regulations wich might effect your opperation.

That is why I am actively involved in a group that promotes sustainable ag policy. That's why I have taken unpaid days from work to go to D.C. to lobby for Farm Bill Reform. Current legislation is skewed in the CAFO's favor. I'm all for leveling the playing field for the small and medium sized producer.

You are the type of person that things everything they think is the truth and 100% correct!

And you seem to be the type of person that likes to enter civil threads and drop your ignorant little stinkbombs.

Also just because someone puts a humanly raised sticker on something in a store doesn't prove anything. If it says organic that is legislated, but something as judgemental as humanly(which the route of the word is HUMAN) is not regulated.

If you were paying attention, you'd know that the USDA is working on label standards for this very thing. In fact, the organic standards themselves contain animal welfare provisions.

Also it is nice that you raise one sow in this manner, try it with 300 so we don't starve!

Where did I say I only raised one sow? I said compare a sow in confinement to one on my place. I finish enough feeders to satisfy my customers.

Do you typically have problems with reading comprehension? I'm sure there is help available for that sort of thing at the high school you attend.

 

[auctionboy]

badaxemoo, I wasn't talking to you. I was talking to hraz. I am talking to him, you are fighting with Dun. I do not believe it is right for your group to try to level the playing fields for small and medium sized producers. Actually I would have to hear more about that, but probably disagree. I only said that you think what you say should be law because you are trying to make it law. Also the raising one sow comment was not about you however it was said in a mocking way in defense of people that breed great amounts, I don't think you have any idea what it would take to have a large scale hog farm in the ways you would see fit, after hearing how you want to level the playing field for small producers I think your problem is a personal one due to the decline of the family farm and your resentment of commercial type farms.

 

[hraz]

Auctionboy, it is that very way of thinking that got us where we are now. I cannot imagine raping my 10 year old boy but that does not stop it from happening all over the world.

The problems in the veal industry are well documented and were at one time encouraged to produce the white meat. Times are changing. They are learning that veal can be raised without the calf being anemic in the dark.

The average sow kept in a gestation crate has 5-7 litters before she is sent to slaughter- for sausage etc- because the carcassed is such bad shape. So about 3 years old.

 

[auctionboy]

Auctionboy, it is that very way of thinking that got us where we are now. I cannot imagine raping my 10 year old boy but that does not stop it from happening all over the world.

The problems in the veal industry are well documented and were at one time encouraged to produce the white meat. Times are changing. They are learning that veal can be raised without the calf being anemic in the dark.

The average sow kept in a gestation crate has 5-7 litters before she is sent to slaughter- for sausage etc- because the carcassed is such bad shape. So about 3 years old.

First of all Auctionboy does not condone raping anyone! From what I have read seven litters is a good amount. I think most old sows go for sausage and maybe bacon, as a older cow wouldn't be cut into steaks. I think scientific research is what changed the veal farms because if those farmers could still produce good veal with light and non anemic calves they would probably perfer to and the have the added health benefits and increased production.

 

[backhoeboogie]

From what I have read seven litters is a good amount.

Keep reading. Those of us who have actually raised animals on the farm don't have to read about it in books.

 

[hraz]

I certainly did not mean to imply that you would rape a child. Just making a point....because YOU cannot imagine it happening does not mean that it does not happen.

As far as I can tell it was conscience and public out cry that brought about the changes that are still taking place. The commercial hog industry is changing the same way. No science but people demanding better.

I do not raise hogs. Is it typical for a sow to be finished and good for nothing but sausage and dog food at 3 years of age?

 

[auctionboy]

From what I have read seven litters is a good amount.

Keep reading. Those of us who have actually raised animals on the farm don't have to read about it in books.

I have never breed hogs, but considered it and read up on it. I also talked to some producers and that is where that number came from. Yes I read, I am sorry. I have raised a lot of feeders, but keep to cattle. I read alot about them before I started also.

 

[mwj]

Where are the studies that show crates to be inhumane?? What was the criteria behind the study? If it is all touchy feely it is not a fact. Check and see how much time and money was spent on HUMANE slaughter regs. It was not done by the I think method. Do a search on Grandin and see how much reasearch was done and the number of papers that were peer reviewed. That is what is needed when you set out to change the practices of the industry. Will the I think theory work when they convince the public that cattle should be denied real sex and that AI is bad for them :shock:

 

[S.R.R.]

Will the I think theory work when they convince the public that cattle should be denied real sex and that AI is bad for them :shock:

:shock: :lol2: :lol2: :lol2: :lol2: :lol2: :lol2: O... thank you so...... MUCH!!! that just added more then 10 years to my life!! ( and trust me I need it!! ;-) )

 

[hraz]

There is plenty of evidence available that shows the harm done by confining the sows in gestation crates.

The extreme confinement causes chronic stress, depression, frustration, aggression, as well as abnormal and neurotic coping behaviors.

They are more subject to urinary diseases, have higher rates of mastitis, metritis, and agalactia.

They get the equivelant of bed sores from the sides of the crate. (2x7 stall remember)

They have an increased likelyhood of broken bones due a decrease in bone strength and overall muscle weight.

 

[Alice]

There is plenty of evidence available that shows the harm done by confining the sows in gestation crates.

The extreme confinement causes chronic stress, depression, frustration, aggression, as well as abnormal and neurotic coping behaviors.

They are more subject to urinary diseases, have higher rates of mastitis, metritis, and agalactia.

They get the equivelant of bed sores from the sides of the crate. (2x7 stall remember)

They have an increased likelyhood of broken bones due a decrease in bone strength and overall muscle weight.

Hey, if the proof is there...who am I to argue.

Alice

 

[andybob]

If consumers are really concerned, they will vote with their dollars. Having imposed the highest welfare regulations in the world, the British public still buys on price, imported pig and poultry products outsell branded British high welfare products, I personally dislike 'Factory farming' but I have even less patience with the hypocrits that force through legislation, then do not support those who go to the expense of complying.

 

[KMacGinley]

I have been studying this thread off and on for a while and I want to contribute.

Why are people that raise their animals with freedom, exercise and sun on their shoulders defending the greedy factory farm industry?

When I was a kid, everyone had about 40 sows around here, and paid for their farms and their kids college education by raising hogs in woodlots and pastures. Sows did last for years back then, instead of till the age of 3 with worn out joints and crippling arthritis.

Small towns were vibrant because of the money that was spread out between all the producers and there was more of them.

There is only one reason for confinement concentration camps for animals and that is greed. It doesn't matter whether we are talking about dairy, pork or poultry. Why do you guys want the owners of smithfield farms to become richer? I personally think that we should raise animals more humanely and I also think that more and more people all the time are considering how there animals that they eat were raised.

Most confinement sows today are kept in gestation crates continuously until they go to a farrowing crate. That is just wrong.

I haven't even touched the subject of the environmental nightmares those facilities cause or the joy of living near one.