Animal Rights Initiatives A Little Scary
- Thread starter S.R.R.
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auctionboy
Well-known member
There is having a right to your opinion and there is trying to make your opinion law by gaining the support of many people that won't ever even be on a pig farm or veal operation and may be easily mislead.
I had to think for a bit before I responded to this. I do not believe that an attitude of responsible compassion for the animals in captivity and under the care of humans is wrong. Animals feel discomfort, pain, emotional loss. Is it necessary for them to suffer because we are going to eat them? We CAN raise these animals in a humane way. Are we not obligated to do so? What makes us human? Not simply the opposable thumb but our abilty to think abstractly and to feel compassion. We know right from wrong. To deny minimal comforts to these animals in the name of money seems to go against all of the principals and morals I hear people take such pride in on these boards. It is impossible to work around or raise animals without KNOWING that they feel, physically and emotionally.
I also do not believe that the human race can continue to take of the wild animals as it pleases. Things are not as they were. The incredible population growth and expansion of the cities etc has taken an enormous toll. The amount of land for wild animals to live on is greatly diminished. The growing numbers of people means more hunters. How long could this possibly go unchecked? Less land to live on and more people hunting means the animal population will decrease. If someone, i.e. the government, does not step in there will be nothing left for people to hunt. I say the government because most people do as they please- without the threat of jail or fines what is to stop them?
"Life as we know it" cannot ever stay the same. The world is constantly changing. We can, as a society, choose to make the most of the changes or fight them. But the changes will never stop. Take a good look around you. How much closer is the city getting to your house.
So, attack me. I am trying in every way I can to maintain my "country" lifestyle. But, I also have to be able to look at myself in the mirror every day. I feel better about myself when the food I am serving my family was treated well while it was alive. I am also teaching my children that compassion for ALL THINGS is good. We have the ability to care for the land, the animals, and ourselves. I choose to do that in a responsible way. Maintaining my lifestyle should not give tacit approval for other to behave badly. This may limit the freedoms of some to do as they please but I feel that the greater good is being served. When I am gone my family and their family will still be here. I am not the end all, be all and I respect that. I am humbled by it.
I also do not believe that the human race can continue to take of the wild animals as it pleases. Things are not as they were. The incredible population growth and expansion of the cities etc has taken an enormous toll. The amount of land for wild animals to live on is greatly diminished. The growing numbers of people means more hunters. How long could this possibly go unchecked? Less land to live on and more people hunting means the animal population will decrease. If someone, i.e. the government, does not step in there will be nothing left for people to hunt. I say the government because most people do as they please- without the threat of jail or fines what is to stop them?
"Life as we know it" cannot ever stay the same. The world is constantly changing. We can, as a society, choose to make the most of the changes or fight them. But the changes will never stop. Take a good look around you. How much closer is the city getting to your house.
So, attack me. I am trying in every way I can to maintain my "country" lifestyle. But, I also have to be able to look at myself in the mirror every day. I feel better about myself when the food I am serving my family was treated well while it was alive. I am also teaching my children that compassion for ALL THINGS is good. We have the ability to care for the land, the animals, and ourselves. I choose to do that in a responsible way. Maintaining my lifestyle should not give tacit approval for other to behave badly. This may limit the freedoms of some to do as they please but I feel that the greater good is being served. When I am gone my family and their family will still be here. I am not the end all, be all and I respect that. I am humbled by it.
hraz":ep2q8sac said:
Good grief, I won't even the emotion aspect of animals.
There are hunting restrictions in place that will insure the continuation of animals. The whole less space and more animals deal doesn't wash. It's the decrease of habitat that is more responsible for a decrease in wildlife then anything else. Has nothing to do with hunting, it's people moving into traditional wildlife habitat and then complaining about how the deer are eating their flowers and the coons are in their trash. I feel it's a lost cause because you obviously have so much experience in wildlife managment, hunting, and animal welfare.
dun
Ryder
Well-known member
I have known a few-very few-people that I considered to be abusive to their animals. But they probably didn't think so.
I'm sure there are those that would say I have been. After all, our cows have actually had to stand in the rain and we don't provide air conditioning when it gets hot.
On some ranches in the west cattle actually have to have a large number of acres to graze. That may be considered cruel compared to ours that can find plenty to eat on an acre or two per head.
But, ours have to live with heat and bugs that some might think is just terrible.
It seems to me that it boils down to a matter of perspective.
I think I had just better mind my own business and respect the rights of other people to mind theirs. Compassion for animals is one thing, but animals are not people. Respecing the rights of PEOPLE comes before animals to me.
Taking care of the business of living my life is just about a full time job. Besides, to do otherwise would be meddling.
I'm sure there are those that would say I have been. After all, our cows have actually had to stand in the rain and we don't provide air conditioning when it gets hot.
On some ranches in the west cattle actually have to have a large number of acres to graze. That may be considered cruel compared to ours that can find plenty to eat on an acre or two per head.
But, ours have to live with heat and bugs that some might think is just terrible.
It seems to me that it boils down to a matter of perspective.
I think I had just better mind my own business and respect the rights of other people to mind theirs. Compassion for animals is one thing, but animals are not people. Respecing the rights of PEOPLE comes before animals to me.
Taking care of the business of living my life is just about a full time job. Besides, to do otherwise would be meddling.
MillIronQH
Well-known member
The Colorado front range has gone nuts. It's the same with the Pacific coast, areas of the Gulf coast and around many of the major cities. But... For the most part "lose of habitat" is way overstated. It may be worse east of the Mississippi. I don't know and don't have any plans to go looking.
The NRA, Ducks Unlimited and many scores of other simular organiztions have been the driving force behind the wildlife conservation practices and programs in place today. In South Texas, and most western states, the land owners have added their voices to that force. There are more good deer in Texas and more elk, Mule deer, bighorn sheep, etc in the Rockies now then 100 years ago. The concept that the increase in the number of hunters is bounding off the charts more every year is a crock. In most states the number of licenses is tighly controled and varies year by year to reflect the numbers of animals and conditions. The system isn't perfect but generally works pretty good until the tree/bunny huggers decide to get into the mix. It's the same with the livestock industry.
There are times when I am tempted to say, Let the rads realize their ultimate goal. Let's throw open our gates and tear down our fences and let all livestock range free. I wonder how long it would take for cattle and horses to be wandering down the streets of NYC and Los Angeles. How many hogs do you think they would have to hit in their hybred cars on the interstate before they would be crying for containment and management? The farmers should stop growing feed grains and only grow food for human consumption. What are the bunny hugers going to say when they wake up some morning to a herd of starving cows or goats eating their rose bushes?
The animal welfare activists always are finding things they want changed but they never have an alternative solution. At least not one that is workable.Z
The NRA, Ducks Unlimited and many scores of other simular organiztions have been the driving force behind the wildlife conservation practices and programs in place today. In South Texas, and most western states, the land owners have added their voices to that force. There are more good deer in Texas and more elk, Mule deer, bighorn sheep, etc in the Rockies now then 100 years ago. The concept that the increase in the number of hunters is bounding off the charts more every year is a crock. In most states the number of licenses is tighly controled and varies year by year to reflect the numbers of animals and conditions. The system isn't perfect but generally works pretty good until the tree/bunny huggers decide to get into the mix. It's the same with the livestock industry.
There are times when I am tempted to say, Let the rads realize their ultimate goal. Let's throw open our gates and tear down our fences and let all livestock range free. I wonder how long it would take for cattle and horses to be wandering down the streets of NYC and Los Angeles. How many hogs do you think they would have to hit in their hybred cars on the interstate before they would be crying for containment and management? The farmers should stop growing feed grains and only grow food for human consumption. What are the bunny hugers going to say when they wake up some morning to a herd of starving cows or goats eating their rose bushes?
The animal welfare activists always are finding things they want changed but they never have an alternative solution. At least not one that is workable.Z
Why was the system put in place to begin with? As for the population growth and expansion........ my county has about 270,000 residents right now. The current estimate for 2025 is 2.1 million (not to long ago the estimate was 1.9 mil). Not sure where you live but this is the situation all over AZ.
auctionboy
Well-known member
Why this system? You are the one that said you raise animals, the same reasons. People needed food. I don't think more population means more hunters. Also most animals are on the increase in population. I would like to discredit your animal welfare background because you don't think with your head.hraz":18ssltfv said:
MillIronQH
Well-known member
hraz":3taw52ev said:
I'm having a problem with the "All over Az" statement. Considering that Arizona is +- 88% goverment controled land I can't see them spreading out to far. Maybe up but not out. You didn't say which county you're in but I'd bet you don't get very far out of town before traveling thru land that is controled by some form of goverment. I've ridden from Prescott to Silver City NM and except for about ten miles just east of Prescott I was never off a national forest. I don't know about city or county owned land but I gaurantee that the state and the BLM, Forest Service, BIA and the military aren't going to come up off of a square foot of what they control. The next line to the story is that y'all threw open the door and allowed the Californicators to come in and do anything they wanted to so live with it.Z
badaxemoo
Well-known member
hraz - I think I would support the animal welfare ballot initiative you discussed at the beginning of this thread. Promoting animal welfare is right up on our list along with good land stewardship practices.
However, I think I have to agree with some others that you might be misunderstanding the role of hunting. While over-hunting is clearly evident in our past, I can't think of many examples today.
In my part of the world, the white-tailed deer population is growing rapidly. Humans are at fault for this, of course, having removed predators and creating the "edge" habitat deer thrive on.
Recent studies show that the overly large herd is having a serious impact on many native plant species - including young trees. The problem we might be facing in the future is that there aren't having enough people hunting and of course that there are still misinformed hunters who won't shoot does because they only want a trophy buck (personally, I haven't found a good recipe for antlers yet).
Dun is correct that loss of habitat is the issue. It's non-game species that are not generalists like deer that are bearing the brunt of the destruction (with the exception of salmon in the Pacific Northwest).
I think hunters need to expand their concern for habitat loss beyond that which only affects their "pet" species, but this doesn't deny the important and necessary role they play in a place like Wisconsin.
However, I think I have to agree with some others that you might be misunderstanding the role of hunting. While over-hunting is clearly evident in our past, I can't think of many examples today.
In my part of the world, the white-tailed deer population is growing rapidly. Humans are at fault for this, of course, having removed predators and creating the "edge" habitat deer thrive on.
Recent studies show that the overly large herd is having a serious impact on many native plant species - including young trees. The problem we might be facing in the future is that there aren't having enough people hunting and of course that there are still misinformed hunters who won't shoot does because they only want a trophy buck (personally, I haven't found a good recipe for antlers yet).
Dun is correct that loss of habitat is the issue. It's non-game species that are not generalists like deer that are bearing the brunt of the destruction (with the exception of salmon in the Pacific Northwest).
I think hunters need to expand their concern for habitat loss beyond that which only affects their "pet" species, but this doesn't deny the important and necessary role they play in a place like Wisconsin.
john250
Well-known member
hraz":1bybisuy said:
If I may ask, what does that amount to? A degree? A class or two? On the job experience?
badaxemoo
Well-known member
S.R.R.":lzh0yy1n said:
Give me a break.
I'm a farmer and a hunter and I'm not threatened by someone who wants to do away with the more abusive types of animal production.
I would probably support them because its the right thing to do.
You're absolutely paranoid if you think that by suggesting regulation of the worst abuses, the door is being opened to a future where PETA can dictate that the only food we can eat are carrots that have died a natural death.
The biggest threat to the livestock industry is itself. In fact, I'd like to see the production side of the livestock industry disappear and be replaced with farming and ranching.
It's time to drop the industry mindset and adopt (regain) one of profitable stewardship. Industrial models of agriculture have been a disaster for the environment, our livestock, and our rural communities.
All three types of experience- on the job, college and classes.
I agree that the biggest harm to habitat is urban sprawl. Tucon and Phoenix will merge in the next 20 years. Not much is going "up" in this area, just out. I do live here and have for a very long time. I have relatives north of here and it is growing there too. Hard to tell me otherwise when I can see it. All of the land around us is owned by developers leasing it back to the farmers. Long term leases but...
My point was only that a lot of the increases in the wildlife are due to the restrictions, not the animals themselves. All of the people I know are not allowed to shoot doe's when they go hunting. I do not hunt so the rules and regs around here I know from talking to people who do.
Before anyone gets in a snit, I do not hunt because I have just never hunted. I do not like the taste of wild game enough to go out to the middle of nowhere in the freezing cold and look for it. Great beef in the freezer. Warmth in my house.
I agree that the biggest harm to habitat is urban sprawl. Tucon and Phoenix will merge in the next 20 years. Not much is going "up" in this area, just out. I do live here and have for a very long time. I have relatives north of here and it is growing there too. Hard to tell me otherwise when I can see it. All of the land around us is owned by developers leasing it back to the farmers. Long term leases but...
My point was only that a lot of the increases in the wildlife are due to the restrictions, not the animals themselves. All of the people I know are not allowed to shoot doe's when they go hunting. I do not hunt so the rules and regs around here I know from talking to people who do.
Before anyone gets in a snit, I do not hunt because I have just never hunted. I do not like the taste of wild game enough to go out to the middle of nowhere in the freezing cold and look for it. Great beef in the freezer. Warmth in my house.
auctionboy
Well-known member
hraz":1wnbatjs said:
How would my opinion on you effect your knowledge, anyway? That is just bad logic. Most animals don't thrive in large forests, but grassland and crop fields with some sort of cover may it be a ditch or woodlot. I think for the most part the animal populations are in a good balance. Over time things will need to change a little, but We are taking care of the land well.
Not too many forests out here, lots of desert and desert type flora. Up north they have some forests but not what they have in NY. As far as the balance, maybe where you live, not here. There has been so much growth that I now have a very large pack of coyotes living behind my office. They come out in the day and attack stray dogs. That is not balance. Every year we get havalina in town.
Incidentally, auctionboy, you stated that you would discredit my knowledge because I do not think with my head. What logic is that?
I am pretty sure that prior to the crop fields the animals were living ok.
Incidentally, auctionboy, you stated that you would discredit my knowledge because I do not think with my head. What logic is that?
I am pretty sure that prior to the crop fields the animals were living ok.
