Angus Quality

[LFF]

I'm curious if anyone knows of any Registered Angus breeders that post their entire herd preformance data on a web site for all to view? I do not know of many breeders of any breed willing to share that much information about their programs. It seems to me breeders would want people to know their actual production data unless they have something to hide. I would like to see some real production data on the Angus breed instead of the supposed hype of how great they are. I respect the folks at Ellis Farms for taking a stand and posting their Barn Sheets on the web. http://www.efbeef.com Look it up under the preformance link. I also find it interesting that over the years they have decreased their Angus herd almost to non-existance.

 

[Avalon]

I have a feeling that ervry body has some puds that they do not want the rest of the world to know about. I Just figured out how some of the big breeders get all those great EPD's.
It takes some really bad ones to show off the good ones.

 

[Scotty]

The majority of Angus sale catalogs that I receive and read( I do not look at all) have actual BW, WW, Yearlings and other data such as scan data. Gardiners, Dream Catcher Ranch and Werhman/Donnell sales have the actuals and adjusted. To post all the data you wish, want or DEMAND borders close to imposable. Most do not have the time nor the inclination to post all of their data. Nothing to do with thier willingness to share. You called Frankie out and she can respond how ever she wants. IMO its her data to do as she pleases. I show all mine to the buyers or perspective customers that come by. Either way there are some great Angus cattle out in the world. I have seen just as many funnel but Herefords and Simmies as I have Angus. IMO every breed has crap cattle that goes out into the world.

 

[LFF]

The majority of Angus sale catalogs that I receive and read( I do not look at all) have actual BW, WW, Yearlings and other data such as scan data. Gardiners, Dream Catcher Ranch and Werhman/Donnell sales have the actuals and adjusted. To post all the data you wish, want or DEMAND borders close to imposable. Most do not have the time nor the inclination to post all of their data. Nothing to do with thier willingness to share. You called Frankie out and she can respond how ever she wants. IMO its her data to do as she pleases. I show all mine to the buyers or perspective customers that come by. Either way there are some great Angus cattle out in the world. I have seen just as many funnel but Herefords and Simmies as I have Angus. IMO every breed has crap cattle that goes out into the world.

Sale catalogs have very little valuable information. Let see the true ratios of the entire calf crop. If you have that then and only then can you really get a understanding of a breeders or breeds production. If you understand that then you know why I say lets see it all. No it is not difficult to post all the information that I want. All you have to do is scan you barn sheets. Ellis farms post there information , it can't be too hard. Have you opened http://www.efbeef.com and looked for yourself? It is not hard to post the information at all. Information found in catalogs will not provide you with a true understanding , most of it is sweetened to make a sale. And as for Frankie , if her quality is as good as she says PROVE IT.

I do agree that there is crap in every breed. I also am tired of Angus promoters saying that their breed is best with out backing up their claims. So yes I am calling them out. If they can show me hard core data then I will take my hat off to them. There are some excellent Angus cattle and producers in business, however many don't have a clue as to what they are producing.

Ok Frankie I changed sell to sale.

 

[oakcreekfarms]

you can look at the hereford website to find all ratios taken on registered stock. I assume the angus breed has much the same.

 

[Frankie]

And as for Frankie , if her quality is as good as she says PROVE IT.

We already know you're blowing hot air when you say "Sell (could you possibly mean SALE :roll: ) catalogs have very little valuable information." You either can't read or don't get many Angus catalogs.

I went to the site you linked and don't see any performance information on their Angus calf crop? So do they or do they not report ALL the information that you're demanding?

And how "good" have I ever claimed my cattle to be? Link, please.

 

[LFF]

And as for Frankie , if her quality is as good as she says PROVE IT.

We already know you're blowing hot air when you say "Sell (could you possibly mean SALE :roll: ) catalogs have very little valuable information." You either can't read or don't get many Angus catalogs.

I went to the site you linked and don't see any performance information on their Angus calf crop? So do they or do they not report ALL the information that you're demanding?

And how "good" have I ever claimed my cattle to be? Link, please.

Quote:
Are Angus breeders so confident that their breeding selection is the best in the Angus breed and therefore should not produce anything else?


Yes.

Why?


Sorry. I should have spent more time on that one. Obviously I can't speak for every Angus breeder, but I'm very confident of our breeding program.

Why? Because of the data and support we get from our breed association. Because of the acceptability of Angus cattle in the commercial beef industry. Because of the wide variety of genetics in the Angus breed. Because of the selection of AI bulls available to us.

 

[Frankie]

And as for Frankie , if her quality is as good as she says PROVE IT.

We already know you're blowing hot air when you say "Sell (could you possibly mean SALE :roll: ) catalogs have very little valuable information." You either can't read or don't get many Angus catalogs.

I went to the site you linked and don't see any performance information on their Angus calf crop? So do they or do they not report ALL the information that you're demanding?

And how "good" have I ever claimed my cattle to be? Link, please.

Quote:
Are Angus breeders so confident that their breeding selection is the best in the Angus breed and therefore should not produce anything else?


Yes.

Why?


Sorry. I should have spent more time on that one. Obviously I can't speak for every Angus breeder, but I'm very confident of our breeding program.

Why? Because of the data and support we get from our breed association. Because of the acceptability of Angus cattle in the commercial beef industry. Because of the wide variety of genetics in the Angus breed. Because of the selection of AI bulls available to us.

So obviously I didn't say how "good" my cattle are.

And I don't see a response about the Ellis barn sheets that you're so proud of. Does that mean they don't really post ALL the information you're demanding that other Angus breeders post?

 

[LFF]

And as for Frankie , if her quality is as good as she says PROVE IT.

We already know you're blowing hot air when you say "Sell (could you possibly mean SALE :roll: ) catalogs have very little valuable information." You either can't read or don't get many Angus catalogs.

I went to the site you linked and don't see any performance information on their Angus calf crop? So do they or do they not report ALL the information that you're demanding?

And how "good" have I ever claimed my cattle to be? Link, please.

Quote:
Are Angus breeders so confident that their breeding selection is the best in the Angus breed and therefore should not produce anything else?


Yes.

Why?


Sorry. I should have spent more time on that one. Obviously I can't speak for every Angus breeder, but I'm very confident of our breeding program.

Why? Because of the data and support we get from our breed association. Because of the acceptability of Angus cattle in the commercial beef industry. Because of the wide variety of genetics in the Angus breed. Because of the selection of AI bulls available to us.

So obviously I didn't say how "good" my cattle are.

And I don't see a response about the Ellis barn sheets that you're so proud of. Does that mean they don't really post ALL the information you're demanding that other Angus breeders post?

They post ALL of the information on the breed of their choice (HEREFORDS) . Surely someone is willing to post similar information for their Angus herd?

 

[Frankie]

And as for Frankie , if her quality is as good as she says PROVE IT.

We already know you're blowing hot air when you say "Sell (could you possibly mean SALE :roll: ) catalogs have very little valuable information." You either can't read or don't get many Angus catalogs.

I went to the site you linked and don't see any performance information on their Angus calf crop? So do they or do they not report ALL the information that you're demanding?

And how "good" have I ever claimed my cattle to be? Link, please.

Quote:
Are Angus breeders so confident that their breeding selection is the best in the Angus breed and therefore should not produce anything else?


Yes.

Why?


Sorry. I should have spent more time on that one. Obviously I can't speak for every Angus breeder, but I'm very confident of our breeding program.

Why? Because of the data and support we get from our breed association. Because of the acceptability of Angus cattle in the commercial beef industry. Because of the wide variety of genetics in the Angus breed. Because of the selection of AI bulls available to us.

So obviously I didn't say how "good" my cattle are.

And I don't see a response about the Ellis barn sheets that you're so proud of. Does that mean they don't really post ALL the information you're demanding that other Angus breeders post?

They post ALL of the information on the breed of their choice (HEREFORDS) . Surely someone is willing to post similar information for their Angus herd?

But that's not what you said. You said "post their entire herd preformance data on a web site for all to view." Obviously they don't. Why don't they post the Angus information? Could it be that the Angus data would make the Herefords look bad?

 

[LFF]

Sorry. I should have spent more time on that one. Obviously I can't speak for every Angus breeder, but I'm very confident of our breeding program.

Why? Because of the data and support we get from our breed association. Because of the acceptability of Angus cattle in the commercial beef industry. Because of the wide variety of genetics in the Angus breed. Because of the selection of AI bulls available to us.

So obviously I didn't say how "good" my cattle are.

[/quote]

Soo , explain it to me. If you are very confident of your breeding program because of the DATA and support you get. And you are convinced that your breed does all the things that the association claims. It seems to me your saying your cattle are at the top of the Angus breed. If they are not then I would be trying to figure out why they were not.

 

[Frankie]

Sorry. I should have spent more time on that one. Obviously I can't speak for every Angus breeder, but I'm very confident of our breeding program.

Why? Because of the data and support we get from our breed association. Because of the acceptability of Angus cattle in the commercial beef industry. Because of the wide variety of genetics in the Angus breed. Because of the selection of AI bulls available to us.

So obviously I didn't say how "good" my cattle are.

Soo , explain it to me. If you are very confident of your breeding program because of the DATA and support you get. And you are convinced that your breed does all the things that the association claims. It seems to me your saying your cattle are at the top of the Angus breed. If they are not then I would be trying to figure out why they were not.[/quote]

I am confident of my breeding program. I think YOU should not be so concerned about MY cattle or the Angus breed in general and look to improving YOUR breed. The Angus Association didn't get to the top of the heap by tearing down other breeds. They got there by encouraging breeders to improve their genetics and promoting the breed. Perhaps you should encourage your Association to do the same?

BTW, I'm still waiting for an acknowledgment that either you were blowing hot air when you proclaimed the Ellis operation posted "all" their information or they're hiding something? Isn't that your explanation of why Angus breeders aren't posting their info?

 

[fit2btied]

LFF wrote:
Are Angus breeders so confident that their breeding selection is the best in the Angus breed and therefore should not produce anything else?

Frankie wrote:
Yes.

LFF wrote:
Why?

Frankie wrote:
Sorry. I should have spent more time on that one. Obviously I can't speak for every Angus breeder, but I'm very confident of our breeding program.

Frankie wrote:
So obviously I didn't say how "good" my cattle are.

fit2btied is writing:
You didn't say your cattle were good. You did however, imply Angus was the best and you are satisfied with your program, thereby implying your cattle are the best. Yes or no? If you want to play word games, go to the e-Scrabble thread.

 

[LFF]

Sorry folks. This seems to have turned into a disagreement between Frankie and myself. I believe that the Angus breed has some advantages over many others, however I do not like the way many people have followed the Angus fad. I have some Angus that have not faired well under my production. I also don't like the way some Herefords fair under similar methods. One thing that I have learned is how Registered Seedstock producers can cook their production records to make a bull or cow of their choice seem superior. NEVER SOLEY PURCHASE A COW OR BULL FROM THE INFORMATION PRINTED ON A SALE CATALOG. That is why I challenge producers to make ALL their records open for public view. I don't want to go into all the methods, it would be a subject for another post. The associations give the owner much greater detailed information on a cows or bull performance than the ratios you see. I wish that too was open for the public to see. If it was then you could make much better decisions of what cow or bull to buy for improvement. The one thing about ratio's that really decieves people is the use of dissimilar bulls and cows. If you can see all the bulls and cows used for deterimining the ratios , you get a better understanding for true production. I have a fair amount of knowledge with in the Hereford breed , however my knowledge of the Angus breed is limited. I could if it was accessable , quickly discern which lines of Angus performed like I would want IF producers opened the actual barn sheets. It would be a great value to any breeder to know the facts.
Frankie I'll quit bothering you about your information. Why should I expect anyone to really share valuable information that the associations consider private?

 

[LFF]

BTW, I'm still waiting for an acknowledgment that either you were blowing hot air when you proclaimed the Ellis operation posted "all" their information or they're hiding something? Isn't that your explanation of why Angus breeders aren't posting their info?

Frankie, I believe that I said why in my first post. Angus herd decreased almost to non-existance.

 

[Frankie]

You're not bothering me. You don't have a leg to stand on by demanding personal information. You don't post your own and the breeder you held up as someone to emulate doesn't either.

No one should buy an animal strictly information in a catalog. They should look at the animal, learn about the breeder, get all the production and performance information available. If it's not available, ask why not.

But while the in-herd ratios of our animals are available to potential buyers, I don't see that they hold much value to most buyers unless they know the breeder's program. I can put a bull on test and have him gain 5 lbs a day and weigh 1200 lbs as a yearling and ratio 105 within his group. Someone who feeds out their own bulls on a more moderate feeding program might have a genetic twin to that bull only weigh 1100 lbs and ratio 100, but unless the buyer knows the bulls are managed differently, the ratios and performance information doesn't mean much.

 

[LFF]

you can look at the hereford website to find all ratios taken on registered stock. I assume the angus breed has much the same.

Oakcreek , you are correct. I made a earlier post that addressed the ratio error. I hope that it makes sense, if not let me know and I will try explaining it another way.

 

[Frankie]

BTW, I'm still waiting for an acknowledgment that either you were blowing hot air when you proclaimed the Ellis operation posted "all" their information or they're hiding something? Isn't that your explanation of why Angus breeders aren't posting their info?

Frankie, I believe that I said why in my first post. Angus herd decreased almost to non-existance.

They have updated Angus EPDs on their site. That would make me think they're using some Angus bulls. All the performance data I saw was Hereford, yet they have used Angus bulls in the past. So they should have info on Angus sired calves that isn't listed on that site. And I don't care. I just felt if you're holding them up as an example to be emulated, it should be pointed out that they're not doing what you're asking others to do.

 

[LFF]

You're not bothering me. You don't have a leg to stand on by demanding personal information. You don't post your own and the breeder you held up as someone to emulate doesn't either.

Your right about not having a leg to stand on. If I did I would not have to ask. If you can not understand the value of providing that type of information , then I don't know how to enlighten you. You are also correct that I don't post my own but I will if you ask. Do you want my information? I will be happy to supply it to you or post it on the board if anyone wants it. The breeder that I used as a example does for the Hereford breed. Their Angus herd probally is less that 5 animals. I will ask them for the Angus ratios.

 

[oakcreekfarms]

A lot of breeders willl put in epds and actual growth and scan data, you can take it upon yourself to look up the ratios at the breed of your choices website.