Angus DOC EPD?
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Katpau
Well-known member
Depends on the accuracy of the EPD. If you see an EPD with an accuracy of 90% for example, that means AAA has received numerous reports from different producers. The accuracy in that case would be pretty good, but you need to remember the cow is better than half the equation, so don't expect a docile calf out of a bat crazy cow, no matter the docility of the sire. I don't trust any EPD's when the accuracy is less than 60%, and even then it depends on who turned in the data. If most of the data was turned in by someone with a financial interest in the bull, I tend to consider it suspect.
Ky hills
Well-known member
Just my opinion, I believe docility is fairly subjective. I wouldn't put much faith at all in a young lower accuracy bull's EPD's. I'd go by pedigree, breeder management, and just overall how he acts and reacts when you are around him if picking out a young walking herd bull
If selecting an AI bull, to me the older "proven" bulls are the only ones that I'd really select based on an expectation of those doc EPD's being somewhat credible.
If selecting an AI bull, to me the older "proven" bulls are the only ones that I'd really select based on an expectation of those doc EPD's being somewhat credible.
simme
Old Dumb Guy
The problem I see is that there are many versions of docility. There is the issue of aggressiveness. The animal wants to attack you just because they want to. Then there is the issue of being shy and afraid, takes off and runs way. Then there is the issue of a cow with strong mothering feelings that is very protective of their calf. All three of those affect overall docility, but are very different. Data submitted to the breed association to develop the epd value might be on a scale of 1 to 5. But that score could reflect that the animal will attack, or it runs away and is a pain to work or it is very protective of a calf. To me, those are all different behaviors. My experience is with simmental docility scoring, but I suspect the issue is similar for all breeds. I don't pay much attention to the docility epd.
SBMF 2015
Well-known member
We use a lot of western A.I. genetics the Doc score is pretty important. Those cattle are bred to do everything on their own. Heck,our biggest pasture is 90 acres. The smallest is 6. Flighty cattle don't work, cows that come after you definitely don't work. I don't mind a cow that's a little snotty when she calves, but leaving her calf a month later to come across the pasture to try and kill me is a no go.
For the most part yes but I have looked at genomics scores of animals that were in the bottom 30% that were very docile so it's not an absolute. For me personally I don't even look at the docility epd unless it's an animal that has a questionable pedigree then it's an observe and verify situation. Wide flight zone cattle are not welcome here so we sort our replacement heifers accordingly. We cull fewer every year for this trait as the herd has improved.
Ebenezer
Well-known member
Somebody can correct me but the DOC is measured from the speed that an animal leaves the chute, I think. That means very little to the pasture actions, meanness, mothering, flight zone... I just culled a nice bull calf from a AI sire that was supposed to overcome the DOC of the paternal grandsire. I asked harder questions after there was a larger flight zone than I preferred and the chute actions were more extreme. I finally got the answer, "there is a range". But accuracy to tell mothering protection, aggression... you had better call up folks on the grapevine to find out the nitty gritty. Been there, done that: run for the fence!
SBMF 2015
Well-known member
Not saying you're wrong but I thought that was called the "Rattle test" how much an individual shakes the chute, how vocal they are and the speed in which they inter and exit. And was scored 1-5, 5 being the worst.
I didn't think it was breed specific.
Ebenezer
Well-known member
Ebenezer
Well-known member
another one
Seems that yearling or younger scoring is involved. Tells me nothing of a mature bull or a cow with a calf.
Seems that yearling or younger scoring is involved. Tells me nothing of a mature bull or a cow with a calf.
Dsth
Well-known member
I agree with @Ebenezer that DOC is rated on the time it takes for the offspring to exit the chute. Not sure where I heard that from but maybe when we took an ABS stud farm tour. I look at the %reliability combined with the DOC EPD. As an example, a couple years ago I liked the physical characteristics of a bull that I liked. He was slightly above average DOC but below average on reliability. I kept three heifers out of him the same calving year. one was the friendliest calf in the group. could walk right up to her and scratch her neck and she would rub up against me and wanting more. the other two were just bat sh*t crazy. one jumped our holding pen for the chute, jumped or ran through 5 strand barb wire fence, and would not go in any direction that we tried to drive her. just let her wonder until she came home on her own. She took a ride ASAP. other wasn't as bad but sold after 1st calf because of bad DOC.
I believe chute exit is what is explained in the Simmental DOC score.
simme
Old Dumb Guy
Here is the scoring system for simmental. Lots of descriptions and somewhat subjective - what if the animal exhibits one of the descriptions for that score, but not the others? EPD's are supposed to quantify differences between animals. And epd's normally have units like pounds, percent, inches, dollars and such. Not sure that docility can do that very well. Normally epd's use contemporary groups to try to remove the environmental aspect of pounds and such and get to the number for the genetic portion. Harder to do that with docility - how much of the score is due to genetics and how much to the handling and management practices. Just seems harder for docility. Sort of like the milk epd. One docility trait that I hate is the ones so gentle that they won't move through the working system smoothly. But the associations need to have a system for docility. I suspect they are doing the best they can with the issue. I don't know how to do any better as a prediction based on scoring. Best to observe behavior and ask a friend, probably.
1 = Docile. Mild disposition. Gentle and easily handled. Stands and moves slowly during processing. Undisturbed, settled, somewhat dull. Does not pull on the headgate when in a chute. Exits the chute calmly.
2 = Restless. Quieter than average, but may be stubborn during processing. May try to back out of the chute or pull back on the headgate. Some flicking of tail. Exits chute promptly.
3 = Nervous. Typical temperament. Is manageable, but nervous and impatient. A moderate amount of struggling, movement, and tail flicking. Repeated pushing and pulling on the headgate. Exits chute briskly.
4 = Flighty (Wild). Jumpy and out of control; quivers and struggles violently. May bellow and froth at the mouth. Continuous tail flicking. Defecates and urinates during processing. Frantically runs the fence line and may jump when penned individually. Exhibits long flight distance and exits the chute wildly.
5 = Aggressive. May be similar to score 4, but with added aggressive behavior, fearfulness, extreme agitation, and continuous movement, which may include jumping and bellowing while in a chute. Exits the chute frantically and may exhibit attack behavior when handled alone.
6 = Very Aggressive. Extremely aggressive temperament. Thrashes about or attacks wildly when confined in small, tight places. Pronounced attack behavior.
1 = Docile. Mild disposition. Gentle and easily handled. Stands and moves slowly during processing. Undisturbed, settled, somewhat dull. Does not pull on the headgate when in a chute. Exits the chute calmly.
2 = Restless. Quieter than average, but may be stubborn during processing. May try to back out of the chute or pull back on the headgate. Some flicking of tail. Exits chute promptly.
3 = Nervous. Typical temperament. Is manageable, but nervous and impatient. A moderate amount of struggling, movement, and tail flicking. Repeated pushing and pulling on the headgate. Exits chute briskly.
4 = Flighty (Wild). Jumpy and out of control; quivers and struggles violently. May bellow and froth at the mouth. Continuous tail flicking. Defecates and urinates during processing. Frantically runs the fence line and may jump when penned individually. Exhibits long flight distance and exits the chute wildly.
5 = Aggressive. May be similar to score 4, but with added aggressive behavior, fearfulness, extreme agitation, and continuous movement, which may include jumping and bellowing while in a chute. Exits the chute frantically and may exhibit attack behavior when handled alone.
6 = Very Aggressive. Extremely aggressive temperament. Thrashes about or attacks wildly when confined in small, tight places. Pronounced attack behavior.
Nick Wagner
Well-known member
In my limited experience, which is only with angus, an emphatic no. Not worth the ink it's printed with. Might as well spit in the wind and study the spray patterns.
simme
Old Dumb Guy
Also, read those scoring criteria I posted above. Then think about working calves for the first time. They don't know what is going on. Do any first time through calves score #1? "Stands and moves slowly during processing. Undisturbed, settled, somewhat dull. Does not pull on the headgate when in a chute. Exits the chute calmly." I think most calves are going to pull back against the head catch, hit whatever is behind them when released and exit quickly on their first time through. Then as an older cow on her 40th trip through, she might be calm as could be. Did her docility change? By the scoring part it did. Was the change due to genetics or environment/management? Well genetics did not change. I think most people want the genetic part evaluated. So do you wait until they are 2 to 3 years old to score them? That don't seem helpful to the system at all. The old bulls did not get their docility reputation by an epd, but by observation or ask a friend who observed.
There is a sign in a ND sale barn that says let your eyes be your judge and your pocket book be your guide. I think it applies here.
Many seem to assume that epds are an absolute. They are not and if we use them to help guide what our eyes see they work. Heritability is not the same in every trait and mating we make. Gene expression varies with inbreeding, crossbreeding or outcrossing. Absolutes don't exist in animal breeding. Environment also plays a role in gene expression and if you get that all figured out right a book on it I would like to read it.
Many seem to assume that epds are an absolute. They are not and if we use them to help guide what our eyes see they work. Heritability is not the same in every trait and mating we make. Gene expression varies with inbreeding, crossbreeding or outcrossing. Absolutes don't exist in animal breeding. Environment also plays a role in gene expression and if you get that all figured out right a book on it I would like to read it.
SBMF 2015
Well-known member
I used to think that until I lived it. There was an AI sire GAR High Noon. His docility EPD was negative at first and later improved to single digits above zero. I kept a son for a walking herd sire. That son never attacked me, but he liked to fight with things. The Easy Way mineral feeder would get tumbled around the pasture until it was in the creek. The small creep feeder would be upside down and backward. It was easier for him to break the legs off those 16' wooden feed bunks after tipping them upside down. He was an aggressive breeder and would go right to work after joining with the cows. He would jump one cow and then move on to the next. The cows settled; I don't remember him breeding a cow more than once. My current bull is an Odyssey son. He is gentle and in no hurry. He will breed a cow and 21 days later he will breed her again. I no longer wonder "where is the bull?" before entering the cow pen. How accurate is the docility EPD? I don't know, but now I consider it when choosing sires.
Nick Wagner
Well-known member
I'm probably more persnickety than most, doesn't take much for me to send a bull to town. For that matter, females too. I hate chasing cattle, fence jumping is not tolerated. Shake your head at me, you signed your ticket. Was a time I tolerated hot cows, old number 8 would exit the barn when I entered, kept some great looking daughters and granddaughters, one of them stepped on her own calf while chasing me, calf died and she left. I've got enough aches and pains, and now grandkids to worry about, I cull hard on disposition and non performance. It's easy since all replacements come from my herd, I know the family history. We currently have two AI sired bulls on the farm we kept from the calf crop, and they're getting along with me, it just seemed to me the docility score was backwards. Enough I had the boy double check.
