Agree or not?

[Nesikep]

I was thinking about my herd, and came to a bit of a conclusion... it goes a bit like this

Just about any cow can raise a good bull/steer calf, but the true test of the cow is how she does raising a heifer.


I came to this after seeing many of my big cows that raise steer calves in the 700-750 lbs, but then totally drop the ball when they have a heifer and can hardly make them get to 625 and they don't look any good... Then there are other cows that no matter if it's a heifer or bull, will be a great looking animal.

Case and point is Tizia (the one that had a stroke)... her steers were all big, her first calf was a heifer that weaned off at about 675, her second heifer (4th calf) is Mega who was similar... so on to her

Mega had a bull calf for her first, and it weaned off again at about 675, she's got her second calf, a heifer this time who looks to be outdoing the heifers from all the older cows, is thick, long and stout

On to other cows.. I have a pair of full sister cows, 8 and 9 years old, both in the 1700 lb range, both raise thunderous steers in the 750 lb range, but we've kept 2 heifers from each, and only one of them has ever raised anything to over 600 lbs... Ironically, it's the worst looking of the bunch that did it, and she's on the truck this fall for prolapsing.

So have any others found that most cows can do well on a steer, but the true test of the cow is how she can raise a heifer?

 

[sizmic]

I don't like to grow big heifers for the simple fact that they get to fat. That affects their milking ability when they get older. I try to keep heifers that are from the lower end of the middle of the pack, the best and the worst get the truck no matter who the mother is.

Sizmic

 

[chippie]

I believe that heifers are slowing maturing and growing than steers or bulls, so you really shouldn't compare the two.

 

[Nesikep]

I've never had a problem with a big meaty heifer not milking well, even if they were fat.. just my experience... I have found that the cows that were able to raise good heifers never had trouble raising a steer, but it seems that some cows are only able to make steers, and their heifers are all dinks

 

[sizmic]

Do you steer them at weaning or at birth, perhaps the benefit of extra testosterone makes the steers better.

Sizmic

 

[Nesikep]

They're steered at birth

 

[DOC HARRIS]

This thread exemplifies three basic fundamentals of beef breeding:
1- Being sired by the same bull, males usually weigh more at weaning than females.
2- For overall determination of financial profit, mature, calf-producing cows which weigh over 1300# are usually more of a detriment to one's "bottom line" each year than mature, calf-producing cows which weigh under 1300#!
3- "LIKE BEGETS LIKE!"

"Breed The Best To The Best"

DOC HARRIS

 

[regolith]

Makes some sort of sense.
Talking bottle calves now, one of the first guidelines for selecting calves is "don't take anything under 40 kg (90lb), twins, 'freebies' &c". The larger calves tend to be stronger, more vigorous, have better ability to throw off challenges like cold, disease, poor nutrition - in a game of 'survival of the fittest', the calves that are born larger are the fittest.
It's my opinion that good management of bottle calves removes that difference. It doesn't make much difference to me if one calf is born 50 kg and the next 18 kg, but it would make a lot of difference to a less experienced rearer - or in your herd, perhaps to a less attentive mother.
Under good management, the two calves each grow to their potential (I expect a 600 - 650 kg cow from the 50 kg calf and a 350 - 400 kg cow from the 18 kg calf at maturity, they are different breeds) but under poor management only the stronger calf has a chance.

 

[SPH]

I'll agree with the original post. It depends on what your program is designed for. Some guys are breeding for show steers and feeder calves while others have emphasis on breeding replacement females. A good cow is going to wean a top performing bull calf or heifer regardless IMO. If they have a drop off in performance based on the sex of the calf then I'n not sure I would consider that cow one of my best.

 

[pdfangus]

Makes some sort of sense.
Talking bottle calves now, one of the first guidelines for selecting calves is "don't take anything under 40 kg (90lb), twins, 'freebies' &c". The larger calves tend to be stronger, more vigorous, have better ability to throw off challenges like cold, disease, poor nutrition - in a game of 'survival of the fittest', the calves that are born larger are the fittest.
It's my opinion that good management of bottle calves removes that difference. It doesn't make much difference to me if one calf is born 50 kg and the next 18 kg, but it would make a lot of difference to a less experienced rearer - or in your herd, perhaps to a less attentive mother.
Under good management, the two calves each grow to their potential (I expect a 600 - 650 kg cow from the 50 kg calf and a 350 - 400 kg cow from the 18 kg calf at maturity, they are different breeds) but under poor management only the stronger calf has a chance.

for natural raised calves raised by the dam....sometimes those big calves can be slow and dumb and get off to a rougher start than a more average sized calf

 

[Taurus]

Makes some sort of sense.
Talking bottle calves now, one of the first guidelines for selecting calves is "don't take anything under 40 kg (90lb), twins, 'freebies' &c". The larger calves tend to be stronger, more vigorous, have better ability to throw off challenges like cold, disease, poor nutrition - in a game of 'survival of the fittest', the calves that are born larger are the fittest.
It's my opinion that good management of bottle calves removes that difference. It doesn't make much difference to me if one calf is born 50 kg and the next 18 kg, but it would make a lot of difference to a less experienced rearer - or in your herd, perhaps to a less attentive mother.
Under good management, the two calves each grow to their potential (I expect a 600 - 650 kg cow from the 50 kg calf and a 350 - 400 kg cow from the 18 kg calf at maturity, they are different breeds) but under poor management only the stronger calf has a chance.

for natural raised calves raised by the dam....sometimes those big calves can be slow and dumb and get off to a rougher start than a more average sized calf

I had this issue with big calves being dumb and slow. They are not very vigorous at birth when compare to the smaller calves that get up within 3-4 minutes and running already when they are a hour old. Big calves make me worried more than the smaller calves.

But regolith's post doesn't make any sense as if he is lumping all breeds in one and declared that larger calves are strongest and fittest.

 

[glacierridge]

I like a cow that can raise a good and good sized heifer.
My cow had twins last year, I know the heifer is a freemartin, but she is bigger and better put together than her brother.
Just from seeing how those twins are, I would not mind seeing my cow have a heifer by a good AI bull.

 

[regolith]

Makes some sort of sense.
Talking bottle calves now, one of the first guidelines for selecting calves is "don't take anything under 40 kg (90lb), twins, 'freebies' &c". The larger calves tend to be stronger, more vigorous, have better ability to throw off challenges like cold, disease, poor nutrition - in a game of 'survival of the fittest', the calves that are born larger are the fittest.
It's my opinion that good management of bottle calves removes that difference. It doesn't make much difference to me if one calf is born 50 kg and the next 18 kg, but it would make a lot of difference to a less experienced rearer - or in your herd, perhaps to a less attentive mother.
Under good management, the two calves each grow to their potential (I expect a 600 - 650 kg cow from the 50 kg calf and a 350 - 400 kg cow from the 18 kg calf at maturity, they are different breeds) but under poor management only the stronger calf has a chance.

for natural raised calves raised by the dam....sometimes those big calves can be slow and dumb and get off to a rougher start than a more average sized calf

I had this issue with big calves being dumb and slow. They are not very vigorous at birth when compare to the smaller calves that get up within 3-4 minutes and running already when they are a hour old. Big calves make me worried more than the smaller calves.

But regolith's post doesn't make any sense as if he is lumping all breeds in one and declared that larger calves are strongest and fittest.

Dairy calves. 17 - 18 kg calves are usually Jerseys out of first calvers, or from a cow that's been compromised in some way... or premature. They go into the group and get reared the same as all the others, but you have to find them quick if they're born on a cold day. It is fact that my 30kg plus calves will survive weather conditions as newborns that will kill any pure Jersey born at the same time. I've also seen that when they go elsewhere to be grown on after weaning, if the management isn't up to standard the weight difference between the smallest calves and the rest of the group widens significantly.
Some beef crosses, on the other hand, yeah, they're dumb. I won't let a Hereford bull anywhere near my cows - difficult calvings and slow to start calves compared to the Angus crosses or pure dairy calves.

 

[Nesikep]

I'm typically not talking about how big the calves are at birth, though given equal conditions, a bigger calf will usually keep the edge on a smaller one through weaning time, I found they usually start eating hay earlier.

I'm mainly asking if people agree that if a cow is able to raise an impressive heifer, she will usually do well with a steer calf as well... but just because a cow can raise a good steer doesn't mean a heifer from her will be good.

Here is a picture of a heifer from a second-calfer which I find impressive, born March 10th @ 80 lbs, she's now about 430lbs and only been on grass for 3 weeks. I figure a 675 lb weaning weight for her is realistic. The brother last year was about that, as a first calf.
She's a spitting image of her mother at her age, so I'll be happy if she keeps it up




As for birthweights, I do find that really big calves are a little slower than lighter ones, but the small ones have less reserves to keep them going if something goes wrong. Last year in the summer one of my cows went from looking like she was thinking about calving at 1 pm, to having a 130 lb bull calf, licked, sucked, and back to laying down by 3 pm.. those are a bit of an exception though

 

[AussieLim]

Disagree- granted steers generally weigh slightly more due to hormones etc. & heifers tend to be earlier maturing, in general laying fat down at an earlier age then steers.but if you crossbreed with a Continental such as Limo or SIMM the heifers often reach bigger weights like their steer counterparts & don't need to be sold earlier (like a straight British) due to not running to fat so earlier.
A lot depends on breeding etc. & granted steers on average will always be heavier but not necessarily better.

 

[tdarden3k]

Nesikep
You have a very nice calf crop. What breed are they ? Red Angus, Gelbvieh or ???????
Thanks

 

[Nesikep]

The heifer pictured is 3/4 gelbvieh, 1/8th shorthorn, and the rest is mostly hereford... calves in the background are 1/2 gelbvieh, 1/4 shorthorn, and the rest is a mix of Saler, Angus and Hereford. Next year I'll probably be trading this Gelbvieh bull off for a Simmi who's got lots of length and meat on him, so I'm looking forward some heavy, meaty calves from that. I took a guess at what my weaning weights are projected to be for each calf in the fall time, and I'm figuring I'll do better than 650 lb overall average which is about 20-40 lbs better than the average of the 4 previous years, and I'm looking at 8 of 11 steer calves over 700 lbs... the 3 that won't make 700 are from first timers, and they all are still impressive with an estimated weaning weight of about 600-650 lb for them.