advice on bulls

[bcarty]

Ok I'm looking for some advice on bull selection. I have a mostly angus cowherd (200 mommas) with some recent influx of simm genetics. I like the growth of the simm animals and I like how the sim angus mommas produce. They are some real calf producers, but most (probably 60%) of my cows just are not think enough for my liking. I cant add more simm genetics without greatly increasing frame score and I actually want to go the other way a bit. Most of my cows are between 5 and 6 on frame and that's pretty close to where I want to be. If I could shift a half a frame score down I would be more satisfied and add as much thickness as possible. I really like the look of the native Scottish cattle (Dunlouise Jipsey Earl) and that is the direction I am looking to go. I realize that is the exact opposite direction of using Simm genetics on my angus cows and should I go that route would have some major inconsistencies with my calf crop for a while, but I need more thickness on my cows to get those super soggy calves. I guess to end this book I'm asking for some sires that are going to move me in the right direction. AI is not an option on all my cows but a select few would be doable. I would be open to any suggestions. Thanks in advance.

I forgot to mention that the WW and YW of the traditional Scottish cattle are scaring me away from using them. I just don't know if I could stomach a loss in WW of 45 lbs per calf. I don't think it would be that bad because its an outcross and I would get some heterosis in there but at todays prices that's $90 per head difference. :shock:

 

[Nesikep]

I think Gelbvieh would work out well for your goals, Thick calves, and you won't be increasing the frame score... Look at 3waycross's animals, they have a lot of gelbvieh and angus influence, and I can't remember his third breed, but it could well have been simm or shorthorn. Hillsdown also has a similar breeding program with great cows.

In my herd I have Shorthorn, Saler, and now Gelbvieh, with some traces of Angus and Hereford way back..
This is Caddy with her 2nd calf, she's half SH, 1/4 Saler, 1/4 Hereford, and the calf's sire is Gelbvieh

A full brother to the calf above, kept intact.. I will be seeing him tomorrow, he'll be 14 months

Here is the sire

And a particularly meaty yearling heifer, she's 1/2 sister (Gelbvieh instead of Shorthorn sired) to the first cow pictured

If you're in the black hides, they do come in black as well.. Hope this helps

 

[skeeter swatter]

Use a terminal bull.

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

Using a terminal bull won't put muscle on his cows.

 

[Waterway65]

There are large and small framed cattle in every breed. That includes both breeds you are currently using. Mel

 

[Nesikep]

I will be going back to Saler again, I found those cows were quite meaty, but they did get tall, and from what I see of the Limos that can be the case as well

bcarty, where are you located? What do your cows eat? My weaning weights on my better cows is usually 700 lbs, not so good cows or good heifers is 600, plus or minus 25 lbs for if it's a bull or heifer calf. I was contemplating Simm as well, but don't really see what I'd get from them other than bigger frames that I can't get in other breeds... Salers are good mothers with small udders and good milk, Gelbveih on that keeps their size acceptable and really puts meat on their backs and butts. I'm uncertain if I'll go back to shorthorns for a while.. they have good milk but unless you have an exceptional bull, the meatiness isn't there.

 

[bcarty]

Ok I live in the Ozarks of Missouri and the cows are eating a lot of wild grass and fescue. I am going to stay straight black and I should have said this before but I want to stay within the angus breed. I have enough crossbred genetics in my cows at this point and don't want to get too far from the angus breed for my cowherd genetics. To address the use of a terminal bull on my cows, someone already pointed out the fact that it wont put meat on my cowherd. Ill add to that statement that the point of a terminal bull is to sell all offspring and even if I were to change that and keep some of the heifers out of a terminal bull I would be taking a huge step backwards in terms of creating better momma cows. That would be almost the same as single trait selection and we all know that doesn't work for very long.

Let me make myself a little clearer. I am looking for recommendations on angus sires that are going to allow me to maintain good mothering ability, black color, reduce frame score slightly, maintain WW above +40 and YW above +80 and add tons of flesh to my replacement heifers.

A couple names I am tossing around:

Connealy Dublin
WRA Vindicator (Milk # is too high)
OCC Emblazon (really Expensive)
OCC Great Plains

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

The cross bred cow has always been the cattlemans best friend. All breeds have terminal and maternal lines with in the breed.

 

[Jake]

Ok I live in the Ozarks of Missouri and the cows are eating a lot of wild grass and fescue. I am going to stay straight black and I should have said this before but I want to stay within the angus breed. I have enough crossbred genetics in my cows at this point and don't want to get too far from the angus breed for my cowherd genetics. To address the use of a terminal bull on my cows, someone already pointed out the fact that it wont put meat on my cowherd. Ill add to that statement that the point of a terminal bull is to sell all offspring and even if I were to change that and keep some of the heifers out of a terminal bull I would be taking a huge step backwards in terms of creating better momma cows. That would be almost the same as single trait selection and we all know that doesn't work for very long.

Let me make myself a little clearer. I am looking for recommendations on angus sires that are going to allow me to maintain good mothering ability, black color, reduce frame score slightly, maintain WW above +40 and YW above +80 and add tons of flesh to my replacement heifers.

A couple names I am tossing around:

Connealy Dublin
WRA Vindicator (Milk # is too high)
OCC Emblazon (really Expensive)
OCC Great Plains

Check out OCC Paxton. He is a definite improvement over Emblazon and great plains. We have a lot of Emblazon cattle they are good, but I like the Paxton's better.

I have a very similar path created for my cowherd. Currently going to be using SAV Mustang as well. Nice moderate frame, highly fertile bull. Stamps all his calves with a consistent looks.

 

[gizmom]

We bred a number of calves to Paxton this year we also have used both Regis And OCC Missing link any of these three bulls would work to add thickness and all are moderate.

Gizmom

 

[torogmc81]

Ok I live in the Ozarks of Missouri and the cows are eating a lot of wild grass and fescue. I am going to stay straight black and I should have said this before but I want to stay within the angus breed. I have enough crossbred genetics in my cows at this point and don't want to get too far from the angus breed for my cowherd genetics. To address the use of a terminal bull on my cows, someone already pointed out the fact that it wont put meat on my cowherd. Ill add to that statement that the point of a terminal bull is to sell all offspring and even if I were to change that and keep some of the heifers out of a terminal bull I would be taking a huge step backwards in terms of creating better momma cows. That would be almost the same as single trait selection and we all know that doesn't work for very long.

Let me make myself a little clearer. I am looking for recommendations on angus sires that are going to allow me to maintain good mothering ability, black color, reduce frame score slightly, maintain WW above +40 and YW above +80 and add tons of flesh to my replacement heifers.

A couple names I am tossing around:

Connealy Dublin
WRA Vindicator (Milk # is too high)
OCC Emblazon (really Expensive)
OCC Great Plains

Check out OCC Paxton. He is a definite improvement over Emblazon and great plains. We have a lot of Emblazon cattle they are good, but I like the Paxton's better.

I have a very similar path created for my cowherd. Currently going to be using SAV Mustang as well. Nice moderate frame, highly fertile bull. Stamps all his calves with a consistent looks.

I saw some Mustang yearling bull calves this past Feb that were very impressive, in a lot of 25+ big name AI sired bulls, including 7229 and other 'hot' angus sires. Would've taken the Mustang calves before any of them if I had the cash at the time ...

 

[bse]

You can get all kinds for A I, you will need several live bulls with similar genetics to service 200 cows. Look at Net Return (16036822) for A I. Buford Ranches in Vinita Ok should have sons from him to use for similar genetics for all your cows.
How many replacement heifers would you keep per year? With 200 id have a certain amount with a terminal growty bull and not leave dollars on the table.

 

[Jake]

I saw some Mustang yearling bull calves this past Feb that were very impressive, in a lot of 25+ big name AI sired bulls, including 7229 and other 'hot' angus sires. Would've taken the Mustang calves before any of them if I had the cash at the time ...

Same story here, I've seen them at Schaff's and a couple of other places. They are stand outs everywhere and stamped with a consistent look. We are going to use him hard, I think he's better than Final Answer.

 

[bcarty]

I looked at SAV Mustang and just numbers and the picture he looks good. What frame score is he. His YH EPD id -.1 so he should be reducing frame size a small amount which is what I want and his growth numbers are right where I want to be. Now I just need to find some sons of him for reasonable $ and a reasonable distance from home. I will not buy overfed bull calves just to watch them fall apart I want someone who has developed them on forage not on grain. That never works for the commercial guy. If you know anyone who will have bulls that fit this category let me know.

BSE - I don't have a set number of replacement heifers I keep every year. I am trying to grow my herd with home produced cows so I try to keep as many as possible. I am actually really strict on what heifers I keep tho. When I get ready to evaluate my heifers I actually start with all of them and eval them basically one at a time. I start with age. I almost never keep a heifer born out of the first 3o days in my calving season and then move through several other parameters. I have kept as many as 50 a couple years ago and down to only about 20 this year. Really depends on cull cow sales and how much I like the heifers as calves. Part of this years group of heifers are sim angus heifers and I decided to sell majority of them as feeders because they grew really good and calf prices lured me into selling them.
I do keep a separate herd of crossbred cows that I put a terminal bull on to produce those feeder animals and I do not keep any of them as replacements. Typically the cows are close to straight angus and I come back with a black terminal bull (Simm) and get good results. I got talked into keeping serveral of the heifers as replacements a few years ago and I really liked them as cows, but they are just getting too much frame on them, so I have went back to selling them. The guy that usually buys them is who talked me into keeping them. He built his whole herd (only 50 cows) from my terminal cross heifers. He really likes them.

 

[shortybreeder]

You can get all kinds for A I, you will need several live bulls with similar genetics to service 200 cows. Look at Net Return (16036822) for A I. Buford Ranches in Vinita Ok should have sons from him to use for similar genetics for all your cows.
How many replacement heifers would you keep per year? With 200 id have a certain amount with a terminal growty bull and not leave dollars on the table.

That's exactly what came across my mind.
If you can AI some of them then I would AI your best cows to one of those bulls that you really like and that you think could move your herd in the right direction to create replacement females.
Look at Genex's Chute-Side Service, that might be a solution if your issue is holding them for A.I. I've also heard that they have some breeding barns that they will take to your farm for doing larger numbers of animals at a time (like 200 head).

 

[shortybreeder]

I looked at SAV Mustang and just numbers and the picture he looks good. What frame score is he. His YH EPD id -.1 so he should be reducing frame size a small amount which is what I want and his growth numbers are right where I want to be. Now I just need to find some sons of him for reasonable $ and a reasonable distance from home. I will not buy overfed bull calves just to watch them fall apart I want someone who has developed them on forage not on grain. That never works for the commercial guy. If you know anyone who will have bulls that fit this category let me know.

BSE - I don't have a set number of replacement heifers I keep every year. I am trying to grow my herd with home produced cows so I try to keep as many as possible. I am actually really strict on what heifers I keep tho. When I get ready to evaluate my heifers I actually start with all of them and eval them basically one at a time. I start with age. I almost never keep a heifer born out of the first 3o days in my calving season and then move through several other parameters. I have kept as many as 50 a couple years ago and down to only about 20 this year. Really depends on cull cow sales and how much I like the heifers as calves. Part of this years group of heifers are sim angus heifers and I decided to sell majority of them as feeders because they grew really good and calf prices lured me into selling them.
I do keep a separate herd of crossbred cows that I put a terminal bull on to produce those feeder animals and I do not keep any of them as replacements. Typically the cows are close to straight angus and I come back with a black terminal bull (Simm) and get good results. I got talked into keeping serveral of the heifers as replacements a few years ago and I really liked them as cows, but they are just getting too much frame on them, so I have went back to selling them. The guy that usually buys them is who talked me into keeping them. He built his whole herd (only 50 cows) from my terminal cross heifers. He really likes them.

http://www.selectsiresbeef.com/index.ph ... 114&id=172
he's very reasonably priced... You could create some of your own :lol2:

 

[bcarty]

I currently AI all my heifers so AI is not the issue. I actually built my own AI barn from a junk 2 horse bumper trailer. Not as cool as some of the big named ones like Larges AI Barn but functional for me. Some of my cows I wouldn't want to AI just because I know they are going to have a calf that I'm not interested in keeping in my herd. I have a large number of cows that I will never keep a replacement heifer from for one reason or another. I have toyed with the idea of AI'ing a select group of cows to get the best genetics but even that way Im looking at a at best 70% conception rate (fixed timed AI) and then half that as heifers. Just doesn't seem to number out in the end when you breed say 50 cows you might get 15 heifers to chose from and that just isn't the kind of numbers I want. I would rather buy a bull and breed 50 cows at 100% conception and have 25 heifers to look at. or 100 cows and have 50 heifers to choose from.

As for the cows I wont keep replacements from cuz I know someone will ask - I have a group of cows that are all gentle good producing cows, but their calves are crazy. Bull doesn't matter all the calves are wired tight as a fiddle from birth to the time they get on the trailer. Have no clue why. I have never had trouble with the cows at all just their calves. Had one heifer calf out of one of these cows last year tore the floor out of my trailer. Didn't know that was possible. The cows are all home raised out of a bull that I raised and really liked. I tried keeping a few of the first ones and that was a mistake. Im not going to use money to AI these cows just to produce feeder calves. The only reason they are not with the terminal herd is limited space on that farm. I also have a couple token colored cows that I just cant seem to get rid of. They aren't crazy colored or anything and I will keep a heifer from these cows if its born solid black but no sense AIing them just to get a colored calf. These cows are the result of my simm bull carrying the spotter gene.

 

[Jake]

He is probably a 5 frame bull. Check your pms for contact info on the guy who now owns him and did have quite a few sons. Not sure what he has left this time of year.

 

[cloud9cattle]

Check out The Sinclair Cattle Co bull line up. Pretty Stout.

http://www.sinclaircattle.com/archives/ ... ectory.pdf

 

[Lazy M]

I saw some Mustang yearling bull calves this past Feb that were very impressive, in a lot of 25+ big name AI sired bulls, including 7229 and other 'hot' angus sires. Would've taken the Mustang calves before any of them if I had the cash at the time ...

Same story here, I've seen them at Schaff's and a couple of other places. They are stand outs everywhere and stamped with a consistent look. We are going to use him hard, I think he's better than Final Answer.

I agree.. seen a bunch of mustang sired bulls this year while shopping around. They all look good- like blocky little tanks.