Advice for a semi-newbie

[nathan arizona]

First – great forum. I've learned a ton just reading threads. Here's my situation. My dad rented his pastures for years as he got older. Now that he has Alzheimer's, I've taken over. Looking at the situation, he was being taken advantage of. It makes much more sense for us to raise cattle on the acreage. I'm in central NC. There are about 12 acres of hayfields and about 60 acres of pasture with 2 ponds on the property. I've gotten 7 heifers there which I bought at decent prices a couple of years ago–6 have had a calf. One didn't. I'm going to give her one more chance. I'll bring a bull (rental) in this September. 2 of the calves are also heifers. I'll keep them, sell the others (3, one died) and try to grow the herd.

Since we've got more pasture than we need right now, I'm cutting the hay off of most of it (trade deal, the guy who cuts it keeps half) and selling most of my part. Obviously, that will end as the herd starts growing, but for now, it's a nice little side income and it keeps the pastures mowed.
I've got a full time day job, but I've always been a "need-to-keep-myself-busy" kind of guy. I'm looking at this as a way to help pay the taxes on the land and maybe help put a kid through school.
So, my question is, if this were you what you do? I had the time growing up learning from Dad. I can fix a fence. I can work the tractor, I can round up cows that have gotten out. But looking back, he just kind of took care of what needed to be done. In other words, I don't think I learned much. What books would you read? Any sage advice you have? How big would you try to go knowing you've got 50+ hrs a week already spent? I realize I'm fortunate on the land situation. I want to make the most of it.

 

[TCRanch]

Essential Guide to Calving, The Cattle Health Handbook & Raising Beef Cattle, all by Heather Smith Thomas. Some of them are a little dated, as in LA200 vs. LA300, etc and not all ranchers agree with her philosophy but the Guide to Calving is a great source in info, including pics & personal experience. A great source of information is from your local/nearest Sale Barn, it's wise to become very acquainted with your vet, listen to the advice of area ranchers and get your hands dirty - learn from your mistakes. Best of luck & welcome to the board!

 

[branguscowgirl]

:welcome: Glad to have you!

 

[Supa Dexta]

How many head did your father have?
Were they all pastured on rental land?
Was it just a retirement gig for him?

 

[Angus Cowman]

Not knowing the stocking rate on your place but it should handle 10 to 15 cows if it is on decent shape
I would get rid of the hfr that didn't cal now for the 2 nd yr
Also you might be better off money wise buying a few older cows bred cows instead of hfrs most of the short solid mouth cows will have less trouble calving than hfrs
You should be able to sell your all 5 of your calves and buy back 3 cows tgat will give you a calf this yr instead of waiting for another 2 yrs to get a return on your investment
Get your cows on a good mineral program and vaccination schedule talk to your local vet about the vaccines needed and he or a couple local cattlemen can probly steer you towards a goid mineral program
Use loose minerals or mineral tubs
Good luck

 

[Son of Butch]

The 1st thing I would do is make sure you are signed up for an IRA at work and contributing maximum of whatever
your employer matches and then consider fully funding any other maximum allowed yourself.

2nd I'm not big on 2nd chances. I would consider selling the open cow and put that money aside and when you sell the 3 calves
take the money from 1 calf add it to the cow money and have it ready so when you come across a good bred cow you can
pull the trigger. A 3 in 1 package (bred cow with calf at side) would be even better IF you have the cash to swing that.
IF you have a cash reserve or the cash flow I would invest the money from the other 2 calves to add a 2nd bred cow or 3 in 1
to the herd. But your full time job should be your main focus, keep it that way.
I applaud you for having the energy and desire for both work on and off the farm.

 

[nathan arizona]

Thanks for all the replies. If I remember correctly, when Dad was doing it himself, he had 20-25 cows. When he rented it out, the guy would bring in 30 pretty poor looking steers and fatten them up and then rinse and repeat. There were always cows here, back to granddad, so not just a retirement gig for Dad.

Never done minerals except for a mineral block, so I'll look into that as well. Thanks again!

 

[msplmtneer]

:welcome: :tiphat:

 

[Jogeephus]

The first thing I would do is map your pastures and identify the soil types on the map and pull soil samples to determine if anything is needed. I'd also purchase the book Southern Forages by Dr. Ball and study up on your forages – what you have and what is possible. In particular, identify and chart the production of your forages by month – this book will help you do this. By plotting this out you will find the gap in your grazing system and you can then look at ways of closing this gap as much as possible.

For example, I have one forage that produces 8 tons of forage per acre per year. Assuming each 1000 lbs of beef eats 30 lbs of this per day that means the carrying capacity of this acre of forage is 533 days or about 1.46 mature animals per acre. Unfortunately, its not that simple because this forage is grown in a 4 month period and after that it loses its nutritional value and goes to shyt. So in the real world you are producing 133 lbs/acre of excellent forage for four months and you should be able to carry 4444 lbs of cattle for 4 months but you are lacking the other 8 months.

To remedy this you either have to harvest, bale and store this surplus hay to feed during your 8 month famine or replace some of this land with something that produces in this famine period. In my case I use bahia. My bahai produces around 8 tons per acre over an 8 month period – or 66 lbs of forage per day as compared to the 133 lbs of the other. This is what I consider my grazing forage. It is the backbone of the whole operation and will keep the cows happy most of the year but you still have four month hole in the system that you need to plug.

For convenience erring hard toward being conservative due to environmental things out of your control lets say one animal unit will consume 66 lbs per day (twice what is needed) of grazing making you golden for 8 months – the surplus stockpiled forage might extend this a month. This means you need to feed 33 lbs/day for 120 days or rather come up with 3960 lbs of forage or in other words for each acre of grazing you need a quarter acre of hay production.

Looking at what how your daddy had it set up, he had 12 acres out of 72 set aside for hay. Or 17% compared to my 25%. (oh if I could only grow fescue I'd be in this neighborhood too) So in my opinion, your dad made it look easy because he knew what he was doing.

Now I'm sure to catch some grief for this but you say you have a full time job and are spending 50 hours a week with this so you need this to be as painless as possible. With only 72 acres you will not be filling potloads of cattle so just forget the controlled breeding season and buy a few more cows and buy a bull and keep him with the cows all the time. Personally, I'd get no more than 50 but primarily I'd base my numbers on the ability of the hay patch to fill the grazing void. What you will find is the cows will set their own calving cycle. You will most likely have a fall and spring calving – naturally. The beauty of this escapes some but if you think of your forage and the amount of tons of cattle consuming the forage a split calving season will allow you to carry your calves to a higher sell weight while keeping your total pounds on pasture at a manageable level and you will not stressing your resources as you would if all the calves were born at the same time. Additionally, you will not have all your eggs in one basket if the market experiences a seasonal drop.

"But looking back, he just kind of took care of what needed to be done. In other words, I don't think I learned much."

You probably learned more than you think, you just didn't ever bother to ask why and I think you will learn this soon enough and may even gain more respect for your dad once you see the why of his system. It sounds to me like your dad had a good understanding of cattle production and on the surface it looks like he let the cattle do their jobs and he did his and his job and your job is to provide the forage and let the cattle handle the rest. Don't try and re-invent the wheel. Don't go chasing breeds. Ask the buyers at the sale barn what THEY want. They are after all your customers. Raise what they want.

Good luck and remember, don't make work when you don't have too. Any unnecessary work you do on your place is just taking the profit out of cattle. Doing it the easy way is surely work enough for someone with a full time job.

 

[nathan arizona]

Wow Jogeephus - what a post! :clap: I'll be studying this for a while. Thanks for taking the time to write that down. What you describe is a lot how I think Dad had it set up when he was actively working it. But you nailed it: I didn't ask enough questions. I just wish I had been smart enough to ask him more when he had all his faculties. I've got him beat on book learning, but that hasn't been worth a lot to me out here on the farm, and I don't think the wisdom part will ever catch up. But just to see what's still there in the long term memory, I'm going to take a shot at seeing what I can get to describe about how he had it set up. You never know. Thanks again.

I'll also take a shot at looking at your recommendations on forage. I have a friend who took a seminar at NCSU last year and highly recommended it. Might be worth me looking into.

 

[TCRanch]

Wow Jogeephus - what a post! :clap: I'll be studying this for a while. Thanks for taking the time to write that down. What you describe is a lot how I think Dad had it set up when he was actively working it. But you nailed it: I didn't ask enough questions. I just wish I had been smart enough to ask him more when he had all his faculties. I've got him beat on book learning, but that hasn't been worth a lot to me out here on the farm, and I don't think the wisdom part will ever catch up. But just to see what's still there in the long term memory, I'm going to take a shot at seeing what I can get to describe about how he had it set up. You never know. Thanks again.

I'll also take a shot at looking at your recommendations on forage. I have a friend who took a seminar at NCSU last year and highly recommended it. Might be worth me looking into.

There is a reason he's a Mentor! One of the best posts I've ever read.

 

[Jogeephus]

Thanks. I hope it gives you some food for thought anyway. Nathan, we share the same regrets for not asking questions when we could. I constantly kick myself for not doing this now that I can't. My forages are going to be much different than yours and I'm guessing you might have fescue in your area hence my previous remark. If I could grow fescue along with the forages that I can grow raising cattle would be child's play here but it seems each area of the country is faced with different grazing holes which the old timers here call "the curse of Eve". But I think you will find a lot of truth in the general idea of what I'm trying to get across. Its just a lot easier and more profitable in a cow calf operation to work with nature rather than against it. I needlessly spent a lot of money figuring this out. Good luck.

 

[nathan arizona]

I definitely have fescue. But not much has been done to it in several years. A little fertilizer a few years ago, but that's it. I'm going to get educated on what's here and what to do for it.

Here's one I hadn't heard before. We had the vet here last week and asked him to look at one of the mamas who was breathing a little heavy. He said she had an allergy or a problem with fescue and in hot weather it made her a little snotty and breathe a little hard. That was new for me, but he said she'd be fine.

 

[JW IN VA]

I want to reinforce the idea of having a good vet that you can ask questions-and ask.Someone said the only dumb question is the one not asked.You are wanting to learn and are going about it in a good way.Be careful'though.Some of the "cutting edge" ideas you will hear about won't last.It also doesn't work to try to do everything like someone else does.Everyone's farm is a little different.Go to the stockyard aand watch what brings good money.And what doesn't.
Pencil some things out from time to time.Some things work just as well with low input-others (like skmping on mineral and vaccines) will bite you, eventually.Also,beware of the high roller who"knows it all" and can't understand why everyone else doesn't do like he does/wants.
Don't get caught up in having new paint on your machinery unless you can really justify it.Remember all machinery is "used" after it leaves the dealer.The word is used not abused".Put your money in what makes money.You have plenty of time.If cutting your hay like you are works for you and your neighbor,there is noting wrong with that.
I wish you well :welcome:

 

[Angus Cowman]

I definitely have fescue. But not much has been done to it in several years. A little fertilizer a few years ago, but that's it. I'm going to get educated on what's here and what to do for it.

Here's one I hadn't heard before. We had the vet here last week and asked him to look at one of the mamas who was breathing a little heavy. He said she had an allergy or a problem with fescue and in hot weather it made her a little snotty and breathe a little hard. That was new for me, but he said she'd be fine.

It isn't an allergy see is showing signs of Fescue Toxicity another reason to keep out a good mineral with CTC In it it is formulated for fescue pasture and helps fight the effects of the toxicity
Purina makes a good mineral that I had good luck with
Kent and Vita ferm are others that are good also

 

[JW IN VA]

AC is right-she has a reaction to fescue fungus.Mne on fescue will do that but seem to get along fine.Maybe they develop a tolerance.

 

[nathan arizona]

So for minerals, just buy the tubs? For 7 cows and 5 calves how many would you buy?

Thanks for all the replies - this is very helpful. And just so everyone doesn't think I have a sorry vet, the "allergy" comment was my second hand interpretation of what my wife told me when maybe I wasn't listening too well. She straightened my out pretty quick when I told her I used the term "allergy."

Thanks again.

 

[JW IN VA]

I would feed loose mineral.Check the labels as they vary.You want to make sure the Calcium/Phospherous ratio is right for cows.Also feed a High Magnesium mineral in winter and spring to combat hypomagnesemia (grass tetany)Feed in a covered feeder or give some to them every few days in a trough,Rain will harden it.Then it becomes like an old vet once said" its like trying to get a drink of water from an ice cube".
I do use tubs,sometimes to jack up the protein levels but am thinking more and more about a grain supplemnt for low protein feeds.