Advice for a newbie

[cypressfarms]

Hi all,

Some background:
I 've been watching from the sideline for a while. Well, I decided to jump in finally. I've been around cattle helping my dad since I was 11 (25years ago) with his cattle. I currently have 20 head of commercial Brangus, but just recently came accross a friend who is an older farmer. Seeing that I was just getting into the cattle business myself, he made me a great deal on 18 heifers (I felt guilty about the price it was so low), but he's a nice guy and he wants to help younger people in the cattle business. They are a mix of just about avery breed.. some angus, some beefmaster, some charolais, some tiger stripes, some I wouldn't even want to guess. I wanted to purchase a bull to put with them next spring/summer, and around here black always sells better, so I bought a 7 month old "angus plus" (which is what we call a cross between a brangus and an angus). Some call them double black, and about another million names. He's seven months old, weighs right at 700 lbs, and I now have him separated with my other Brangus bull for the winter. The only problem I forsee is that I have no EPD info on him, so I don't really know for sure that he is the right bull for these mixed hiefers.

My goal is to produce calves that will have a high enough percentage of angus to not be docked at the sale barn.

Any thoughts from the pros???

I will try to post a picture for everyone to tear him up.

Thanks in advance for any advice, be it comical or helpful.

 

[Brandonm2]

Normally I advise people to buy a bull with the EPDs, individual performance, structure, and muscling that you would like to see in your calf crop and if he is deficient in any of the above buy another bull. BUT you have already bought the bull. I am not in the habit of second guessing my decisions once the money is spent. If he looks good, use him next April. The biggest thing you can do though to avoid calving problems in heifers is NOT bull selection; but heifer management. Make sure they are all properly vaccinated for BVD, PI3, IBR, Vibrio, the five leptos, and anything that is common to your area. Supplement the heifers (if necessary) so that they are 65% of their mature cow weight, before turning in the bull. That can be anywhere between 620 and 1100 pounds depending on hip height, depth, length, girth, muscling, bone structure, etc though 850 is a good modern avg.

 

[cypressfarms]

Lets see if I can get this right... The picture of the "angus plus" bull is in front of my brangus 2 yr old bull.
Brandonm2, thanks for your comments. I've learned from my dad that taking care of young heifers is very important. They will winter in ryegrass and will be well taken care of. Plan to put the new young bull with them around March15 to April 1. I only chose this type because many of the heifers that I bought have a lot of "ear" to them, so I was hoping that the bull would not only put a more uniform crop/color, but would reduce some of the ear as well. I bought him from a Brangus rancher that we've bought from for years. He guarantees this (and all of his bulls) until we are satisfied. Including soundness exams, semen counts etc.

The other picture, if I did it right, is a pic of the heifers that were practically "given" to me.

But what I would like is a critic of what people think of this young bull.

 

[Brandonm2]

The angle of your shot makes him look smaller than I think he really is. That calfie head will look better in six months. He is nicely muscled, has good depth, looks structurally sound, and is level topped. He could be a little longer. If you are going to use him in just 130 days with 14 heifers, I would want him gaining 2 lbs a day between now and then if possible which will require supplementing him with some bull test.

 

[cypressfarms]

I would have liked him a little longer also; he was the best of the group. My dad and I spent about an hour picking him out of about 20 other weanling age bulls. I am supplementing both of the bulls pictured with what our local Feed Service Mill calls "stocker grower" which is a 14% pelletized feed. I do think that you may be right about 14 heifers with this young bull. I may take a 2 or 3 of the more "angus" looking heifers and put in the pasture with the bull in the background and my other brangus cows. I know his BW EPD is low, and I think he could more easily handle 24 cows at 27 months old than the young bull could handle 14 heifers at 13 months' age.

Thanks for the comments.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

The young bull you have selected is fine for the herd you have at the present time. Financial considerations always seem to dictate one doing things that perhaps would not be their first choice, however you have the cows and you have the bull, therefore Nutrition and Management are the primary considerations for a successful calf crop. As Brandonm2 stated, have the bull in good physical condition prior to turning him in with the heifers, Vaccinate them all adequately for your area, and have the heifers in about a grade 6 condition - not fat. A good mineral program is mandatory - particularly one which will help eliminate those horn flies. Horn flies will sap strength and vitality from cows more than you realize, besides producing pupae in the manure and next spring and summer the cows will be driven mad with Horn flies, and your calf crop will suffer! BIG TIME! Right Time Mineral or something similar will do a good job on preventing larva, but it must be done RIGHT NOW!

One more thought on the "Management Side" of your operation: You might consider selling your 14 "Inexpensive Cows" as "Springers" (just before they calve) and taking the returns that they will bring and purchasing 5 or 6 or 7 higher quality bred Cows with calves at side, (worth maybe $2000+/- each ) and you are on your way to a pretty good up-grading program and are saving TIME in doing so! As soon as your current cows arae bred - sell the bull and you wont have to carry him while he is not working. Then buy a better bull for the next calf crop - and so on. Just a thought or two to get better quality more quickly. Time is Money!

DOC HARRIS

 

[Brandonm2]

I don't often disagree with Doc; but unless I am in the Registered business, I would rather have numbers than quality and 14 ugly cows with calves is a bigger payday than 6 quality cows with great calves. I don't have to ever be proud of a cow to make money off of that cow. Slap a good Angus (or Hereford) bull on those x-bred mix and match cows and you will have ~uniform calves to sell at the barn. It all comes down to your goals. IF you want to own the best possible beef cows trade up; but if your goal is to make the most money I would rather have the biggest herd that I have grazing for. You can always add better cows in the future with your earnings to churn out those "ideal" heifers .

IF you do the math....
14 calves X 520 lbs X $.99 (using the lowest number for 500 lb calves) versus 6 calves X 620 lbs X $1.15 (using the highest number for 600 lb calves) then gross revenues come out to...
$7207 for the mongrels versus $4278 for the dream cows.
Even after subtracting $2000 in additional cow maintenance costs for the bigger herd you still pocket another $929 and I don't think those heifers will be outperformed THAT badly once in production.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

I don't often disagree with Doc; but unless I am in the Registered business, I would rather have numbers than quality and 14 ugly cows with calves is a bigger payday than 6 quality cows with great calves. I don't have to ever be proud of a cow to make money off of that cow. Slap a good Angus (or Hereford) bull on those x-bred mix and match cows and you will have ~uniform calves to sell at the barn. It all comes down to your goals. IF you want to own the best possible beef cows trade up; but if your goal is to make the most money I would rather have the biggest herd that I have grazing for. You can always add better cows in the future with your earnings to churn out those "ideal" heifers .

IF you do the math....
14 calves X 520 lbs X $.99 (using the lowest number for 500 lb calves) versus 6 calves X 620 lbs X $1.15 (using the highest number for 600 lb calves) then gross revenues come out to...
$7207 for the mongrels versus $4278 for the dream cows.
Even after subtracting $2000 in additional cow maintenance costs for the bigger herd you still pocket another $929 and I don't think those heifers will be outperformed THAT badly once in production.

Brandonm2 - Figures don't lie, and I can't argue with figures - EXCEPT - (I gotta' save some face here somehow! :lol: ;-) ) I overlooked one phase of my "Upgrading Program for Commercial Breeders". I would suggest that he acquire some pretty good females (as in my original post on this thread) and THEN Flush the best one's and increase his herd with some good cattle instead of mongrels - for the FUTURE! I think that in a short time he will making a pretty good BOTTOM line with cattle that are better than mongrels! Don't have to be Registered, just quickly better.

DOC HARRIS

 

[cypressfarms]

Wasn't trying to start a war, or make anyone feel they had to save face.

I already have 20 "commercial" Brangus that do very good year in year out. The larger bull in the background is the current bull that I run with them. He is registered and from the Eagles Ranch, a (in my opinion) very good local Brangus ranch. By "newbie" I meant to the post board. I have been helping my dad out for years, and as he gets older I help more. This year I was able to take over ~ 70 acres of land that belongs to my wife's family, and has been neglected (can you see the smutgrass?), but has potential. I am trying to now "build" a seperate herd from my dads/mine without breaking the bank.

The heifers are the result of an "old timer" being nice to me, and for me to just turn around and sell them would be slapping him in his face. There should be more people like him in the world. Not because he practically gave me these heifers, but because he's a genuinely good person. He stops by from time to time and visits so for all of the heifers that were once his to "disappear" would not go un-noticed. My hope was to winter these in ryegrass, give them some time to grow, put them with a decent bull and cull the poorer ones out. That he would understand because he culls cows himself every year. I like the mongrel reference. When does hybrid vigor turn to mongrel? Seriously, my guess is that at least 8 of these heifers have good potential. To me, that means the potential to be a good cow, and wean good calves. A "dream" cow for me is one that is good tempered, an easy keeper, and weans nice calves every year; and I really don't care what color she may be. Being from way down south, we do usually have cattle with some braham in them, but there's always exceptions.

Already in a situation with these heifers, I thought the best way to go was to put an Angus type bull with them, to hopefully make a less mongrel/more uniform crop, and see what would happen.
The reason for the post is because I am not as experienced with buying young bulls, and I wanted some opinions on him. Most of the bulls that we've bought have been at least 2 and I was more easily able to tell "quality". I know this young bull will grow out, and if he's anything like his dad or mother, he'll be fine.

 

[Ryder]

I have to agree with what Brandon says. For the most part they are not bad looking animals. I like the looks of that bull for your plans. Brandon's suggestions seem practical to me.

 

[mtnman]

That new calf is better than your old bull.

It is a nice start for you, he should keep most or all of them black depending on if he has two genes for black, plus he can keep the heterosis up there for extra fertility.

Does your neighbor want to help anybody else get started? :lol:

mtnman

 

[cypressfarms]

o.k. mtnman,

Does the brangus bull not look good to you?

Actually my neighbor is sometimes too friendly. He winds up getting "taken" by people who he thinks are really in need way too much. But as he says, he'll keep givin, and let the man upstairs take care of the rest.

 

[mtnman]

honestly cypress, if he is anything like he looks, he is not to good of a bull.

No hurt feelings, I hope, but that is my honest opinion. The new bull is a vast improvement. Good depth, looks thick. Length, I don't care about, I think it's overrated.

You've got a good start.

mtnman

 

[cypressfarms]

mtnman,

No hard feelings, don't worry. I like critical evaluations of my cattle from anyone who'll give it. Here's that bigger Brangus bull by himself. He'll be 2 years old in January 2006.

Exactly what portions don't you like?