Hippie Rancher":ruufsyku said:
Pardon me Bez?, but are you refering to Iraq? You do know most of that has only occurred POST invasion... Iraq was for the most part a stable secular country prior to the gulf war, 12 years of sanctions, and the recent invasion - and while Sadam was indeed a brutal dictator, (especially to his percieved enemies, as are most evil dictators - the rest of the folks probably felt "safe" rather than restricted) the vast majority of the population were a heck of a lot better off than they are now.
What you listed is true of some other countries, but sure was NOT true of Iraq until relatively recently. It was also true of Afghanistan when the US was training bin Laden and co to fight the Soviets, and is returning to it once again dispite our also "liberating" that country.
So what about bi Laden? Interesting that with all of our wealth and technology, huge forces and talented "hunters" nobody can seem to find a 6foot 5 inch tall Arab.
And frankly that list of personal restrictions sounds more and more what some religious fundamentalists in this country would love to have.
Beyond all that, none of those reasons are the ones given by the administration and supposedly agreed to by our so-called representatives. Your reasons may be fine ones, but I don't like being lied to by anybody. Especially my own government.
Hippie
Your question was:
I am curious what you mean by "how people live over there"?
I answered it. Fair and square. Now you try to pick it apart as if it is not accurate - trust me it is.
Your initial question is now expanding in debate - diversion? - therefore - in addition to my original answer a response - quite possibly my last because I fear this will degenerate:
Some of those restrictions aply to Saudi, some to Iraq, some to Afghanistan. Those restrictions do exist!
They have ALWAYS existed. Hence the squallor that is common in the middle east and the hate that is easily propogated by the religious leaders of those respective countries.
Mullahs and fundamentalists would like those restrictions to be blanket for the entire world.
Do not believe for an instant that India and Pakistan are not terrified about the possible and potential uprisings in their own countries and what would happen if successful.
I give a schitzen about ole Bin - he is either dead or will be. It is not easy to find people in the mountains - some of the roughest country in the world. You would have to see it to believe it.
I suppose you do not want to discuss the chemical killing of thousands of Kurds? Thousands of women - children and any men who spoke out. Delivered by artillery and aerial spray. The terrorism taking place in Iraq and Afghanistan - often from IMPORTED terrorists. From your country - from my country and from neighbouring countries.
We also are in danger from HOME GROWN terror groups - many examples recently - one even in Toronto last month. You have had more than your share as well.
Muslims kill more Muslims than allied soldiers do.
Lies?
Seems to me the media has convinced you.
Ever wonder why more people try to leave those countries than immigrate into them?
In the end if we do not do the job, it will come to us.
You may be looking at this from a person who thinks WMD are the only reason - believe me they are not. Once again I do not care what your government said - having seen it I know there is a serious requirement for us to stop terrorism from developing. As do the Israelis - the latest media villian.
All you have to do is wander those streets sometime. There is far more good being done there than is ever reported. And I would venture it will never be reported as it does not "sell". Western media are as a general rule - whores. Try reading "Arab News, BBC and Sky News" for different perspectives. Moscow and Bejing also produce English papers that are informative and often VERY different from North American based media outlets.
There at a cost. Yes. But once again - even if we all stand back and say we were lied to - do we stand back and wait for the people who want us dead to come to us? They are coming anyway - so we better get on with the task at hand.
At risk of appearing to attack you - I am not - to promote
Isolationism is folly at it's best.
Just like WWII - the U.S. stayed out for two years because of nay sayers and politics. Only when they were hit in Pearl did they mobilize - thank God they did. But history may repeat itself if folks in the U.S. continue to believe they should pull out.
There are serious efforts being made to have that happen - western people are to be considered weak. Kill enough of them and they will run away - this is a very typical thought by the Islamic community in the middle east.
Beware of history repeating itself.
Doing so would simply allow the rebuilding of the Muslim countries and the resulting terror groups. We were all at risk before - even non participating countries in the middle east have been hit. As I write I believe the only country that has not been hit is Canada - perhaps because of their week kneed initial actions - allowing Islamic groups to operate unhindered. That will change unless - and they are - they harden their response to Muslim actions.
Seems to me we did stand back once and we lost a couple of measly buildings, a pile of decent and honourable folks and in the end saw our lives change forever. Your media still perpetuates conspiracy theories on this - I am not a politician and I am not a learned person - I am now just an old fat guy - but I wore a uniform for many years and did not take it off very long ago - it is for the young to do the job. In fact it may be going on soon if my number comes up.
If you linger over the "lies" and do not look out at the ramifications of sitting on our arses - then you simply stand in the same box with others who would bury their heads in the sand.
When that happens it becomes necessary to protect the arse that now sticks up in the air.
To this day I will believe we MUST be there - or THEY WILL BE HERE.
That alone should scare the living heck out of the nay sayers. Instead they are prepared to create "dissention amoung the troops" and the bad guys love it when that happens.
In fact it is one of their main goals - create this dissention. Seems to me this was a common effort from certain iron curtain countries during the Vietnam war. But what do I know for sure? I am simply a foreigner who visits here to - usually - chat about cattle.
The "big, bad American" (sarcasm) - is a saviour - but there are some who would make them a villian - many from that same country.
As for what we were told - once again - I give a damm - there are other important aspects - the highest priority being - prevent them from returning to North America. Unfortunately folks who live in their little boxes do not think beyond what might happen - and the media loves them - as do the various political folks who want to be in power.
Believe me - the bad guys want to bring the war here. The question is - What will be done about it?
Bez?
