I am wondering how many US breeders were considering Norsman King this spring now that ABS is distributing him??
http://abs-bs.absglobal.com/beef/redang ... o=29AR0218
http://abs-bs.absglobal.com/beef/redang ... o=29AR0218
5L Norseman King 2291L
- Thread starter BWA
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I don't mean to be rude with this comment, but please explain to me what is wrong with his bw. Yes a 97lbs bw may be bigger than what most are, but his bw EPD is close to average and he has an .89% accuracy. They won't be big.
We may Flush a cow to him. He is intriguing.
We may Flush a cow to him. He is intriguing.
I might would use him as a terminal sire. What irritates me is when a bull has such good maternal values and has such terrible maternal calving ease values. You use him as a terminal bull and get a really nice heifer out of him then decide to keep her as a replacement because she is just too good to send to the feedlot. Then you have to live with the consequences. Too often people then blame the bull the heifer was bred to instead of putting the fault where it belongs.
dun
dun
I never said I really like him, I said I may use him to flush a cow to. I just think he would be a good cross on one of my bigger framed flush cows. I know Larry's herd is known for moderate frames and high maternal cattle. By visting with him and a few others, this guy does just that and yet he isn't a fine bone bull and does have some performance in him.
I might be going against the grain here but thats nothing new, I think he is great, has sired a great line of bulls - Norsman Express - and has brought in some wonderful new genetics and great carcass values. I purchased a son of his, Feddes Norse #1025942 for specific use as clean up on registered HEIFERS. Don't let the BW game kick you in the pants, if you keep using low BW bulls on every thing you will create your own calving problems. Find a good bull for heifers and use on heifers( low BW high CED) and find a good bull on cows for cows. BW and YW are highly correlated traits ans pelvic size(not shape) is somewhat correlated to YW(not frame score). A bull of 90 lb BW has its place as does one with 65lb BW, you just have to keep it in it's place. OK sorry for the rambling yes he is a very good bull and I'm glad to see him available through a major stud so he can make the impact he should on the Red Angus Breed.
sjr725
Well-known member
I agree with Sage, I'm not a particular fan of this bull or red angus in general but we have several low BW bulls that we put with 1st & 2nd calf heifers, and I have bulls with bw of 90-95, that I use on older cows - maybe we've just been lucky but only had to pull one calf last year and he was a breach - nothing to do with BW, I wouldn't automatically rule out a bull with many other good qualities just because he had a larger BW. I've got 88 on the ground at last count this year with about 250 left to go no problem so far. Our cow herd is good commercial stock, mostly herf - and I use registered herf bulls, we used to use charlois bulls but this will be the last year with thier calves - we just have better luck with the herfs - that said I have 20 or so herf x char cows that I wouldn't part with - great moms.
Sage":1awn71kw said:
Wth all due respect, BS. There are a lot of good bulls that have low BW with acceptable WW and YW and still have daughters that calf easily. There are also those big weight bulls that have daughters that are a pull waiting to happen.
dun
purecountry
Well-known member
dun":1fowlrdv said:
I'd have to agree with dun on this one. As for the bull, he's got great depth through the chest and barrel, but where's his ass-end?? He cuts up in the flank and just doesn't have much of a quarter to him. I wouldn't use him. There's better bulls out there.
The Express bulls(sired by Norsman) are very thick and compesate very well for any hind quarter issues(if there are any) from Norsman. Only so much can be seen in a picture, nothing like seeiong the actual animals.
I was but just can't let the BS thing go (Dun & Pure Country) but I hope an individule would do their own research and not take what is said here as gospel.
Pelvic area and scrotal cir have a small relationship .04
Pelvic area and Yearling Wt have a high relationship .57
Pelvic area and BW are only slightly related .13
Pelvic area is highly heritable .40-.60
For the most part selecting for low BW also lowers YW, there are some animals this is not the case but as a general rule I hope it can be accepted that the majority of bulls are not true curve benders.
I personally have AI'd heifers that the "BW game" absolutly devistated a herd in less than 7 generations, pelvic measurements were so small the largest calf would have to be <60lb(according to rice pilvimeter area/calf wt information).
The owners of these heifers later told me that they buy a bull for thier heifers and the same bul stays with them for the next several breedings, they changed thier breding criteria abruptly.
I have selected brutally for our own replacements and bull use and I expect any of our cows(3yrs or older) to give birth to 90+ lb calves without assistance and this has been very bennificial for our program and we do not have dystocia problems.
Sorry to steal the thread, I said before I like Norsman, he is not perfect but bred right he can sire some fantastic calves. CETM could be better as hind quarter muscle but remember EPD's are a tool not gospel either. And "with all do respect "if you don't agree thats fine but tell why with facts not that it's BS.
Pelvic area and scrotal cir have a small relationship .04
Pelvic area and Yearling Wt have a high relationship .57
Pelvic area and BW are only slightly related .13
Pelvic area is highly heritable .40-.60
For the most part selecting for low BW also lowers YW, there are some animals this is not the case but as a general rule I hope it can be accepted that the majority of bulls are not true curve benders.
I personally have AI'd heifers that the "BW game" absolutly devistated a herd in less than 7 generations, pelvic measurements were so small the largest calf would have to be <60lb(according to rice pilvimeter area/calf wt information).
The owners of these heifers later told me that they buy a bull for thier heifers and the same bul stays with them for the next several breedings, they changed thier breding criteria abruptly.
I have selected brutally for our own replacements and bull use and I expect any of our cows(3yrs or older) to give birth to 90+ lb calves without assistance and this has been very bennificial for our program and we do not have dystocia problems.
Sorry to steal the thread, I said before I like Norsman, he is not perfect but bred right he can sire some fantastic calves. CETM could be better as hind quarter muscle but remember EPD's are a tool not gospel either. And "with all do respect "if you don't agree thats fine but tell why with facts not that it's BS.
Farmgirl
Well-known member
Sage,
You cite some interesting correlations. Could you give us a link. I would like to read more about this.
Thanks,
Farmgirl
You cite some interesting correlations. Could you give us a link. I would like to read more about this.
Thanks,
Farmgirl
http://web1.msue.msu.edu/imp/modaa/23300001.html
here is some information
http://www.ag.unr.edu/ab/Extension/Heifer/03.htm
this is where my information came from that was states above but the link doesn't work for me any longer. I do have a hard copy that I could email.
here is some information
http://www.ag.unr.edu/ab/Extension/Heifer/03.htm
this is where my information came from that was states above but the link doesn't work for me any longer. I do have a hard copy that I could email.
elwapo
Well-known member
he looks homozygous for the the "noassatoll" gene
The only cattle we have ever had calving trouble with as heifers are ones that came from low bw lines.
That is our experience, low BW leads to calving troubles down the road.
There is a happy medium for BW, it ain't low, and it ain't high.
Badlands
That is our experience, low BW leads to calving troubles down the road.
There is a happy medium for BW, it ain't low, and it ain't high.
Badlands
lazy ace
Well-known member
I've seen a set of calves that weren't at Larry's sired by Norsemen. I have one word impressive. They were very consistent and seemed to have plenty of muscle. I think if you go back in the pedigree you will see VGW King of the West. If I remember right he brought good money also.
I have been watching this pedigree for awhile and I think it will work for some people. He will definately add some depth and guts to the Cherokee Canyons out there. (Just what I think.)
have a cold one
lazy ace
I have been watching this pedigree for awhile and I think it will work for some people. He will definately add some depth and guts to the Cherokee Canyons out there. (Just what I think.)
have a cold one
lazy ace
DOC HARRIS
Well-known member
Good post, dun! You are absolutely right. Irresponsible breeders are induced to "cheat" on their own set goals and keep heifers as replacements becase of how they "LOOK", and ignore their EPD statistics, thereby disrupting their established herd-building plans. "Plan Your Work - and - Work Your Plan!"dun":3mas2xy2 said:
DOC HARRIS
Badlands - Are you not a fan of linebred Black Prince of Sunbeam cattle? 
I had never studied Norseman before. Kind of scary cattle on the bottom side of the pedigree if you go back enough. Shearbrook Shoshone isn't a positive either. I didn't realize their were any cattle around with that much Sunbeam breeding. Really Scary
I had never studied Norseman before. Kind of scary cattle on the bottom side of the pedigree if you go back enough. Shearbrook Shoshone isn't a positive either. I didn't realize their were any cattle around with that much Sunbeam breeding. Really Scary 
