16 month old Hereford bull
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Herefords.US
Well-known member
LFF":3dwyvxsd said:
Around 25% Remitall breeding, specifically Keynote, is what I'm shooting for in my breeding program.
I like the Governor bull as well. And I like S&S's Marshall bull. I saw him sell at Denver.
George
I just pulled up his performance pedigree a seen that he had a 47.7 yearling scrotal circumference :shock: . Thats tremendously big. I'm not sure I've ever heard of a yearling bull with quite that large a scrotum. He looks good sized now but I wouldn't have guessed him that big.
He is a nice looking bull with good numbers.
He is a nice looking bull with good numbers.
LFF
Well-known member
Ned Jr.":39fj5vqn said:
I don't know how they adjusted him to that number. His actual measurement that I took was 42.64 cm. He does have a very large scrotal , even my KAB AI representive made note of his scrotal size. I believe that the increase size comes for the 3008 sire that is in the pedgree.
There are some others that have a larger scrotal number. Do a search on the AHA web site and only search the BM index , list from highes to lowest. There is one with Sparks that has a 39BM and if you look at his scrotal measurement it is 49 cm.
LFF
Well-known member
farmwife":tw8ha1c1 said:
I like his EPD's, what I was attempting to say, is I don't believe in collecting any bull base soley upon his EPD's. Conformation and actual productive traits are also very important in my opinion.
I agree that he has some faults, what ones do you notice.
Bez>
Well-known member
LFF":izxx7k13 said:He is not as long as I'd like and I realize that he has faults, so speak your thoughts about him.
Not as big?
Well in truth the pics do not do justice and in fact size does not transmit through photos very well. So being old and not too wise I figure he is right where he should be.
Be that as it may I did not bother to look him up - I seldom do - but if he is as I have read:
He is a decent bull. I would consider using him as my animals actually match up well with a bit of that Remitall.
I actually would have thought he was older than you say.
I would not bother collecting semen - bulls this good are to be found everywhere. Do not waste your time or your money.
He will make a decent field bull. You do not need to be ashamed of this guy.
Proof will be calves. He could have stellar calves if the cow match is right - and of course he could have crap if the cow match is wrong. Remember he is only half of the equation.
Good luck.
Best regards
Bez>
S&S Farms
Well-known member
Herefords.US":233kb6qt said:
George
I still get knots in my stomach when I think of that night in Denver. I have been pleased with his daughters great udders and enough milk to raise a nice calf.
Jeff
LFF
Well-known member
Thanks everyone for your input. Finding and keeping the best bulls for you herd is challenging at best, especially when you are using bulls from top producers that are AI approved. If I ever have a bull that should be collected I want it to be worthy of using in other peoples herds.
HerefordSire
Well-known member
I decided to post some pictures of my 16 month old bull that I'm using on some of the herd as well as clean-up on the AI'ed cows.
Causitic he is not raised on a Welfare program but weaned entirely on fescue grass and momma's milk. He did recieve 10-15 pounds of supplement per day for 3 months during the winter while I was feeding poor quality hay.
Knersie he does not have as much hooded area as you like , however for my area I believe that it is more than adequate.
Camp he does have considerable red on his neck and legs.
Alan this is the bull that we spoke about on a previous trend about non-certificate bulls and you asked for pictures.
He is not as long as I'd like and I realize that he has faults, so speak your thoughts about him.
LFF....
Job well done! I believe what you will find out is his growth has not begun yet, specifically, he should get much longer, as the 3008 daughters I have are very very very long and getting longer! Additionally, this specific bull has EF genetics known for very high REA. The numbers are solid. Being a 517 linebred (nice calving ease to spread to descendants!), with Governor and 3008 to boot, add tremendous value. Overall in the market, I believe 3008 offspring are very undervalued and in about five or so years, 3008 breeders should get well rewarded. Before the general public gets too much experience with them and sees the value I do, accumulation at low prices becomes more important. Want to sell him?
As far as a welfare program....or head in the sack..etc. Keep the animal alive. Keep the animal healthy. It is non-sense what some people post on this board.
Causitic he is not raised on a Welfare program but weaned entirely on fescue grass and momma's milk. He did recieve 10-15 pounds of supplement per day for 3 months during the winter while I was feeding poor quality hay.
Knersie he does not have as much hooded area as you like , however for my area I believe that it is more than adequate.
Camp he does have considerable red on his neck and legs.
Alan this is the bull that we spoke about on a previous trend about non-certificate bulls and you asked for pictures.
He is not as long as I'd like and I realize that he has faults, so speak your thoughts about him.
LFF....
Job well done! I believe what you will find out is his growth has not begun yet, specifically, he should get much longer, as the 3008 daughters I have are very very very long and getting longer! Additionally, this specific bull has EF genetics known for very high REA. The numbers are solid. Being a 517 linebred (nice calving ease to spread to descendants!), with Governor and 3008 to boot, add tremendous value. Overall in the market, I believe 3008 offspring are very undervalued and in about five or so years, 3008 breeders should get well rewarded. Before the general public gets too much experience with them and sees the value I do, accumulation at low prices becomes more important. Want to sell him?
As far as a welfare program....or head in the sack..etc. Keep the animal alive. Keep the animal healthy. It is non-sense what some people post on this board.
I disagree (what a shock). I definitely would go ahead and collect him. He is a very eye appealing bull, his owner likes him (thus far), his EPDs are superb, his pedigree is respectable, he looks looks neither overfed or underfed, he is sound, structurally correct, from the pic he looks neither too big or too small, and he has performed well individually. Like all of us he WILL die at some point and bulls lead active physically demanding lives. They CAN turn up dead or lame at any time. How many of us have looked at a set of 10-12 year old cows that we raised and said to ourselves......I WISH that I had used THAT sire more or that I had semen from THAT bull. I would collect him now, put it in storage, and if he lives up to his potential then you can be getting new heifer calves out of him for the next 20+++ years. If he doesn't live up to his potential.....you haven't risked that much. I would stop putting it off and just go ahead and do it.
HerefordSire
Well-known member
oakcreekfarms":1qb1pmva said:
...because 3008 genetics are on the verge of skyrocketing in market perception (just look at your M326 progeny). You will know it when the price explosion occurs...just listen for the sucking sound like a money vacuum or if you like, a volcano. Then it will be too late for accumulaton unless you unload your stock relatively quickly.
One day not too long ago, I was working some soil with a subsoiler on my tractor. I noticed one of my 3008 cows was not visible, which was not too uncommon. However, the second day I was working the soil, I noticed she was still not visible, so I started to wonder. I have about a mile and half year around county creek ruinning through my property that is about 20 feet deep and about 30 feet across. I finally located her with two other Angus females in the creek at the same place. The hereford cow was neck high in water, one was dead, the other was beached on the bank with a busted ankle. I finally was able to navigate my tractor to the creek by running over smaller trees for about 1/4 mile or so. I threw a couple of chains in the front end loader before I left. I went swimming until I was able to work the chain around the Hereford's chest, under her arm pits, and tied the chain together, hooked the chain to the front end loader and commenced to pulling backward with the tractor. After about fifteen chain adjustments, I was just about to pull her up, when she started quirming and her head was going under as if she was going to drown. I jumped in the water real fast, adjusted the chain very quickly, climbed back on the tractor very fast, and pulled her on out. She has an dangling angle so I had to put her and the Angus (ankle bone showing) out of their misery. I do not understand what happened. I figure my part wolf cow dog, or a pack of cyotes, or a bobcat, or some type of animal ran them into the creek at night and they just dove in without knowing what they were doing.
I am glad I have some embryos of this cow that are frozen. In my view, these specific embryos are priceless and they will never be sold.
HerefordSire
Well-known member
I don't believe that a bull should ever be collected based solely upon his EPD's, however click on the link that I've listed in reply to Alan's question about his pedgree.
Shurable has good carcass values and tops the charts on the Profit indexes, especially the Baldie Material index.
A deciding factor about collecting him his will be the preformance of his prodige, with special importance place upon their birth weight and calving ease.
LFF....
There are times when the perceived risk is higher than the projected return not to mention cattle breeding theory and experience dictate it would be premature to collect this bull. However, time is money and money is time....currently, the 10 year Treasuries return about 5-5.25% per year which are assumed to be no risk as they are backed by the full faith and credit of the US Dept. of the Treasury. Although these rates have recently climbed (bonds sold off), they are still historically very low. Therefore, the opportunity cost of the investment to collect this bull is not as risky as it seems, unless you have other debt not disclosed. For starters, if you can afford the initial investment it would be nice to have about 100,000 units of semen (let me know if you want to do an equity share). The profit indices are very strong. I noticed your name in the top bull calf list but I didn't say anthing but I am watching your bull and your operation.
Shurable has good carcass values and tops the charts on the Profit indexes, especially the Baldie Material index.
A deciding factor about collecting him his will be the preformance of his prodige, with special importance place upon their birth weight and calving ease.
LFF....
There are times when the perceived risk is higher than the projected return not to mention cattle breeding theory and experience dictate it would be premature to collect this bull. However, time is money and money is time....currently, the 10 year Treasuries return about 5-5.25% per year which are assumed to be no risk as they are backed by the full faith and credit of the US Dept. of the Treasury. Although these rates have recently climbed (bonds sold off), they are still historically very low. Therefore, the opportunity cost of the investment to collect this bull is not as risky as it seems, unless you have other debt not disclosed. For starters, if you can afford the initial investment it would be nice to have about 100,000 units of semen (let me know if you want to do an equity share). The profit indices are very strong. I noticed your name in the top bull calf list but I didn't say anthing but I am watching your bull and your operation.
HerefordSire":1vudaej2 said:
Sorry about your loss. If I even had the reasonable suspicion that MY dog ran my cows too death that sucker would be DEAD. Put him on a chain. He probably is not responsible; but keeping YOUR dogs up and everybody else's inside your fences dead WILL at least help the turkey/quail population. I have never seen cows panic like that over a bobcat and if coyotes had run your herd like that (and if three ended up crippled the WHOLE herd got run pretty bad) they probably would have taken a calf. This smells like the work of dogs (running cows nuts for the pure fun of it), unless they were just caught in a flash flood. You might also go ahead and pony up the money to fence off that river. You lost one (AT LEAST) $3000 donor, and two Angus cows to that thing in one day. That's what? $6000??? I can build a lot of barbed wire fence for $6000, even if I have to nail it back up every other year when it floods.
HerefordSire
Well-known member
Sorry about your loss. If I even had the reasonable suspicion that MY dog ran my cows too death that sucker would be DEAD. Put him on a chain. He probably is not responsible; but keeping YOUR dogs up and everybody else's inside your fences dead WILL at least help the turkey/quail population. I have never seen cows panic like that over a bobcat and if coyotes had run your herd like that (and if three ended up crippled the WHOLE herd got run pretty bad) they probably would have taken a calf. This smells like the work of dogs (running cows nuts for the pure fun of it), unless they were just caught in a flash flood. You might also go ahead and pony up the money to fence off that river. You lost one (AT LEAST) $3000 donor, and two Angus cows to that thing in one day. That's what? $6000??? I can build a lot of barbed wire fence for $6000, even if I have to nail it back up every other year when it floods.[/quote]
Thanks Brandon. It was a crushing blow in more ways than one. I suspect the wolf dog did do it for fun. Someone abandoned her when she was a pup near the same creek where the country road and the creek interect. I had a guy working for me and I was talking with him by the intersection when he made a "kill" comment about a dumped dog. I looked at the pup and could tell she had doberman, german shepard, and someting I could not put my finger on. Now, I am pretty sure it is genuine wolf. I took her in and have been feeding her for about nine months and she has really got big and thick. One day she tree'd a big black cat much larger than a domestic cat. I figured it was a panther. Sometimes, I hesitate trusting her as she is a force to reckon with and I am no little or overweight person. I figured I could have her watch the place while I was gone and train her to be a cow dog. I am still training her. I have thought alot lately about teminating the dog. A chain is coming for beginners. In regards to the fence, I pulled the cows out of the area. The money is not the issue for creek fencing as it is in the works.
Thanks Brandon. It was a crushing blow in more ways than one. I suspect the wolf dog did do it for fun. Someone abandoned her when she was a pup near the same creek where the country road and the creek interect. I had a guy working for me and I was talking with him by the intersection when he made a "kill" comment about a dumped dog. I looked at the pup and could tell she had doberman, german shepard, and someting I could not put my finger on. Now, I am pretty sure it is genuine wolf. I took her in and have been feeding her for about nine months and she has really got big and thick. One day she tree'd a big black cat much larger than a domestic cat. I figured it was a panther. Sometimes, I hesitate trusting her as she is a force to reckon with and I am no little or overweight person. I figured I could have her watch the place while I was gone and train her to be a cow dog. I am still training her. I have thought alot lately about teminating the dog. A chain is coming for beginners. In regards to the fence, I pulled the cows out of the area. The money is not the issue for creek fencing as it is in the works.
oakcreekfarms
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So why not breed back to M326 or 5N if he fits your fancy. Bulls like this are good, but are fairly common. He needs to prove himself, and his momma needs to prove herself. Unless you want to pull smen only for your use, I doubt you will make your money back. But if money isn't your reasoning then go for it.
You never know, maybe he is the next big cattleman's bull. Regardless, good luck.
You never know, maybe he is the next big cattleman's bull. Regardless, good luck.
Brandonm2":yb7if9nw said:
I agree with Brandonm2. If you don't have to haul the bull to far it shouldn't cost that much to get him collected. With the bulls scrotal size he should give quite a few straws (I bet well over 100) in 1 collection. Some places can just keep the semen to process when they come to semen check.
I always collect my herd bulls and feel it's the best insurance you can have. Sometimes by the time you get a bulls daughters in production and realy find out how good he is it's to late. You end up wishing you would used him harder or not have sold him ect.. There is semen from bulls I have thrown away but then I have some I'm very glad to still have. Allot of times it's that plain bull you didn't expect that has the daughters that keep you going. I tend to like the bulls that may of only produced fair sons but had outstanding daughters over ones that produced outstanding sons but only fair daughters. I veiw Herefords as a maternal breed. Everytime I work my cows I have an appreciation for the bulls that left me those good daughters.
Herefords.US
Well-known member
HerefordSire, first, sorry about your loss. I took note of your thoughts about your cows in an earlier thread and know that this was a personal as well as a financial loss.
Along with others, I've been critical and adversarial in a lot of exchanges we've made on this board.
The criticism I stand by - your choice of unproven cows for donors, your infatuation with unproven EPD numbers, your contrarian views on BW and frame size, etc.
I've also found you to possess the knowledge and intelligence (likely from experience in areas outside cattle breeding) that has always left me with the thought that, once you see your theories tested and the flaws in your logic revealed, you will adjust your thinking and breeding program accordingly - IF you don't become completely discouraged when you see your financial projections miss by a wide margin.
Every once in a while, you REALLY test that opinion, like when you said:
I cannot imagine ANYONE investing the amount of capital needed to process and store 100,000 units of semen on a young, unproven bull. 500-1000 units, maybe, but 100,000 units?
Regardless of my criticism of your program, I feel certain that you will have a number of excellent calves from the embryos that you've accumulated. Even from average cows(and I'm not saying YOUR cows are average, just unproven), the array of bulls that you've chosen should produce a crop of calves that could be the foundation of a very good program.
It'll be interesting to see the choices you make as you move forward.
George
Along with others, I've been critical and adversarial in a lot of exchanges we've made on this board.
The criticism I stand by - your choice of unproven cows for donors, your infatuation with unproven EPD numbers, your contrarian views on BW and frame size, etc.
I've also found you to possess the knowledge and intelligence (likely from experience in areas outside cattle breeding) that has always left me with the thought that, once you see your theories tested and the flaws in your logic revealed, you will adjust your thinking and breeding program accordingly - IF you don't become completely discouraged when you see your financial projections miss by a wide margin.
Every once in a while, you REALLY test that opinion, like when you said:
HerefordSire":1ufsvbhw said:
I cannot imagine ANYONE investing the amount of capital needed to process and store 100,000 units of semen on a young, unproven bull. 500-1000 units, maybe, but 100,000 units?
Regardless of my criticism of your program, I feel certain that you will have a number of excellent calves from the embryos that you've accumulated. Even from average cows(and I'm not saying YOUR cows are average, just unproven), the array of bulls that you've chosen should produce a crop of calves that could be the foundation of a very good program.
It'll be interesting to see the choices you make as you move forward.
George
HerefordSire
Well-known member
HerefordSire, first, sorry about your loss. I took note of your thoughts about your cows in an earlier thread and know that this was a personal as well as a financial loss.
Thank-you from the heart George! I have worked very long hours for the last 30 or so years. For the last year and a half, I have learned a lot about raising cattle as I have certainly put in the hard work. The 3008 progeny I have are also hard workers. I inspect them very closely all the time, dusk and dark. I stand by them to see what type of grass they like the best so I can provide more. I am there when they need me and when they don't need me. They allow me to rub them on their noses. They make sure they are the one I am looking at as they peak in the corner of their eye from a distance. I can be behind them and they trust me. Like mother like daughter. The Angus is a different story.
Along with others, I've been critical and adversarial in a lot of exchanges we've made on this board.
That is quite alright. I believe I encourage debate at times just so I can learn faster. The knowledge comes when I sleep at night as a result of the day's mind debates. The truth just pops in my head all of the sudden and then I take action. People ask what I do for a living and I say, "I think". My entire day is thinking of better more creative ways to do things and problem solving. That is what I get paid for…to save time for many people. If I can save 10 minutes per high dollar licensed engineer per day, I saved the company a lot of money.
The criticism I stand by - your choice of unproven cows for donors, your infatuation with unproven EPD numbers, your contrarian views on BW and frame size, etc.
There are times when we have to take a risk to get ahead. With me, there is a strong conviction…I almost get obsessed with a thought as I have an uncanny ability to sense value before maturity. Yes, I am wrong many times. It is all a numbers game when we are humans as we make so many mistakes. The percentage of winners has to overwhelm losers or chose a different profession. We have to stick our head out on the line to be a big winner. The alternative may be certificates of deposits and hope social security doesn't run out for us boomers.
I've also found you to possess the knowledge and intelligence (likely from experience in areas outside cattle breeding) that has always left me with the thought that, once you see your theories tested and the flaws in your logic revealed, you will adjust your thinking and breeding program accordingly - IF you don't become completely discouraged when you see your financial projections miss by a wide margin.
I am almost sure you are correct. I have allowed five years to not generate cattle revenue. Hopefully, I won't get discouraged. A little story about Wayne Gretsky I heard but I am not sure if it is true: One championship hockey game was nearing an end with a couple of seconds remaining; Wayne slammed a puck toward the goal to win. The puck hit the outside portion of the goal and ricocheted into the goal as time ran out for the Stanley Cup Championship. When reporters swarmed in the locker room, no one could find Wayne. You know where he was? He was on the ice with an empty rink with bags of pucks hitting the same shot where the puck ricocheted. I am a lot like Wayne.
I cannot imagine ANYONE investing the amount of capital needed to process and store 100,000 units of semen on a young, unproven bull. 500-1000 units, maybe, but 100,000 units?
I am accustom and trained in taking large calculated risks. The most important thing to remember is…you must be right! If you don't know you are right or wrong, stay up all night every night until you find the answer. Then make the decision. If you are not right, cut your losses and run to the next one. Once you are trained, you will know a lot quicker if you are right or not after you make a decision.
Regardless of my criticism of your program, I feel certain that you will have a number of excellent calves from the embryos that you've accumulated. Even from average cows(and I'm not saying YOUR cows are average, just unproven), the array of bulls that you've chosen should produce a crop of calves that could be the foundation of a very good program.
I have this one Angus recipient carrying the Remitall Highway and the decease Hereford donor conception in her womb. I look at her most every day to inspect how wide she is getting. WOW! It will be a 100+ pound calf let me tell you. I believe the EPD YW is projected over 110 or so. I think the projected EPD BW is around 3.0.
It'll be interesting to see the choices you make as you move forward.
Thank-you from the heart George! I have worked very long hours for the last 30 or so years. For the last year and a half, I have learned a lot about raising cattle as I have certainly put in the hard work. The 3008 progeny I have are also hard workers. I inspect them very closely all the time, dusk and dark. I stand by them to see what type of grass they like the best so I can provide more. I am there when they need me and when they don't need me. They allow me to rub them on their noses. They make sure they are the one I am looking at as they peak in the corner of their eye from a distance. I can be behind them and they trust me. Like mother like daughter. The Angus is a different story.
Along with others, I've been critical and adversarial in a lot of exchanges we've made on this board.
That is quite alright. I believe I encourage debate at times just so I can learn faster. The knowledge comes when I sleep at night as a result of the day's mind debates. The truth just pops in my head all of the sudden and then I take action. People ask what I do for a living and I say, "I think". My entire day is thinking of better more creative ways to do things and problem solving. That is what I get paid for…to save time for many people. If I can save 10 minutes per high dollar licensed engineer per day, I saved the company a lot of money.
The criticism I stand by - your choice of unproven cows for donors, your infatuation with unproven EPD numbers, your contrarian views on BW and frame size, etc.
There are times when we have to take a risk to get ahead. With me, there is a strong conviction…I almost get obsessed with a thought as I have an uncanny ability to sense value before maturity. Yes, I am wrong many times. It is all a numbers game when we are humans as we make so many mistakes. The percentage of winners has to overwhelm losers or chose a different profession. We have to stick our head out on the line to be a big winner. The alternative may be certificates of deposits and hope social security doesn't run out for us boomers.
I've also found you to possess the knowledge and intelligence (likely from experience in areas outside cattle breeding) that has always left me with the thought that, once you see your theories tested and the flaws in your logic revealed, you will adjust your thinking and breeding program accordingly - IF you don't become completely discouraged when you see your financial projections miss by a wide margin.
I am almost sure you are correct. I have allowed five years to not generate cattle revenue. Hopefully, I won't get discouraged. A little story about Wayne Gretsky I heard but I am not sure if it is true: One championship hockey game was nearing an end with a couple of seconds remaining; Wayne slammed a puck toward the goal to win. The puck hit the outside portion of the goal and ricocheted into the goal as time ran out for the Stanley Cup Championship. When reporters swarmed in the locker room, no one could find Wayne. You know where he was? He was on the ice with an empty rink with bags of pucks hitting the same shot where the puck ricocheted. I am a lot like Wayne.
I cannot imagine ANYONE investing the amount of capital needed to process and store 100,000 units of semen on a young, unproven bull. 500-1000 units, maybe, but 100,000 units?
I am accustom and trained in taking large calculated risks. The most important thing to remember is…you must be right! If you don't know you are right or wrong, stay up all night every night until you find the answer. Then make the decision. If you are not right, cut your losses and run to the next one. Once you are trained, you will know a lot quicker if you are right or not after you make a decision.
Regardless of my criticism of your program, I feel certain that you will have a number of excellent calves from the embryos that you've accumulated. Even from average cows(and I'm not saying YOUR cows are average, just unproven), the array of bulls that you've chosen should produce a crop of calves that could be the foundation of a very good program.
I have this one Angus recipient carrying the Remitall Highway and the decease Hereford donor conception in her womb. I look at her most every day to inspect how wide she is getting. WOW! It will be a 100+ pound calf let me tell you. I believe the EPD YW is projected over 110 or so. I think the projected EPD BW is around 3.0.
It'll be interesting to see the choices you make as you move forward.
Talk Show Mod":gvl4erhl said:
I never advocated making that kind of investment. I am only talking about storing 100-200 straws for future in-herd use; not marketing him world wide or basing the entire program around him. I would either have to have a whole lot of faith in a bull OR own a heck of a lot more cows than I am ever likely to own before I bred 100 cows to one just bull. There are too many other options out there.
