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Not many people in this thread talking about ''mega doses'' other than your source saying they could be toxic. Have you done any research to see if an y studies show your vitamin to be toxic?
 
mwj said:
Not many people in this thread talking about ''mega doses'' other than your source saying they could be toxic. Have you done any research to see if an y studies show your vitamin to be toxic?
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Do you know what a recommended dosage is? Or what a toxic dosage is? How many times and in what amounts can you sprinkle mineral over grain being fed to cows and expect reasonable results?

I met a girl once that had just gotten out of rehab... for the third time. She was 16, and an alcoholic. We discussed how she felt about drinking and she swore that she was done drinking. The next morning she was dead on the very lawn we had met her and had our conversation. Alcohol poisoning. I don't know enough about it to say if it was this single time, or an accumulation of times that affected her ability to metabolize alcohol, that killed her.
 
StrojanHerefords said:
Are the cows currently settling in the first cycle with the bull? If not fix that first before trying to AI.
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Yes, they are. I’ve had a few over the years that calved laye but the ones I have now are breeding back on the first cycle after the bull is put with them. We’ll know soon if that is true this year for my spring calvers.
 
Travlr said:
Do you know what a recommended dosage is?
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4oz/hd/day. It’s pretty easy to figure. 1# a day covers 4 cows.
It’s also a good way to gauge what your cows are consuming when they are out on pasture with free choice mineral. A lot of cows will eat more in a free choice situation than when I force feed them.
 
SBMF 2015 said:
4oz/hd/day. It’s pretty easy to figure. 1# a day covers 4 cows.
It’s also a good way to gauge what your cows are consuming when they are out on pasture with free choice mineral. A lot of cows will eat more in a free choice situation than when I force feed them.
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Great... That's good information. Now the question is... do your cattle actually NEED supplements.
The guys selling supplements want you to think so. They don't sell any test kits or maps of areas with mineral deficiencies. They sell salt with tiny amounts of essential minerals mixed in that most animals in the country get naturally from the environment.
 
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Travlr said:
They sell salt with tiny amounts of essential minerals mixed in that most animals in the country get naturally from the environment.
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Have you read the label on any popular mineral mixes? How much salt is in the mineral mix you are talking about? What ingredients are in the mineral mix?

You imply that the bag is mostly salt with a "tiny amount" of mineral. Let's look at a label for the facts. Some mineral mixes do contain some salt. Some do not or very little. I am holding in my hand a label for Purina Wind and Rain high mag. It is about 16% salt. 13% calcium - an essential mineral. 4% phosphorus - an essential mineral. 10% magnesium - ever have grass tetany death due to imbalance of magnesium? Potassium, manganese, cobalt, copper, iodine, selenium, zinc, vitamins A, D & E in small and even "tiny" amounts. But those trace minerals have a large effect on fertility and overall health. IF the nutrition from grass and hay have adequate amounts of ALL these minerals ALL the time, then feeding these mineral mixes is probably a waste of money. But, how do you KNOW that they are getting adequate amounts ALL the time. Do you test forages weekly or monthly? Liver biopsy? Or do you give access to these mineral mixes? The topic of this thread is the use of AI and how to get better results from hopefully a once a year breeding time. If the gauge of success or failure is counting calves at calving season, that is a 9 month delay on the assessment of mineral related fertility.

That is a decision that every producer can make for themselves and reap the benefits or suffer the waste of money over time. But to characterize mineral mixes as salt with a tiny amount minerals is a stretch of the facts in my view.
 
simme said:
But, how do you KNOW
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Well... I ask questions and observe results. I talk to the Ag agent, the vets in the area, and my neighbors.

I don't generally get my decisions from the guy that makes money selling me something.

It's really kind of amazing that me suggesting KNOWLEDGE before spending money and the worry that comes with doubting your cattle's health is a hard ask. Do what you think is best... I've offered my opinion and told you I've used minerals myself. If y'all want to take offense over a reasonable suggestion, live with it.
 
Reasonable suggestions like the danger of toxicity from sprinkling a loose mineral over feed? Maybe you should paint your roof again while the weather is nice.
 
To prevent toxicity, it is crucial to analyze feed, water, and soil, rather than assuming that providing extra minerals is always beneficial.
Texas A&MTexas A&M

Mineral toxicity in cows occurs when supplementation exceeds the maximum tolerable concentration, often, though not exclusively, through excessive intake of trace minerals like copper, leading to liver failure, or high sulfur levels causing neurological death. Excessive salt or iron can also be dangerous.
Kansas Veterinary Diagnostic LaboratoryKansas Veterinary Diagnostic Laboratory

While calcium is essential for beef cows, an excessive, long-term intake (toxicity level) is generally considered to be above 1.5% of the total dry matter intake. However, death from calcium toxicity is usually due to acute overdose from improper supplementation or, more commonly, from a heart attack caused by injecting too much calcium too quickly to treat a deficiency (milk fever).
St. Boniface VetsSt. Boniface Vets

While phosphorus (P) is an essential nutrient for beef cattle, excessive levels can be harmful. The maximum tolerable level for phosphorus in cattle diets is generally considered to be around 1.0% of total diet dry matter.
CAES Field ReportCAES Field Report

Research indicates a chronic, potentially lethal dose of magnesium for cattle can be linked to high levels in dry matter intake.
Safe Range: Diets with elevated magnesium levels, particularly from supplemental sources like magnesium oxide or sulfate, should be avoided. High levels can lead to severe diarrhea and negatively affect rumen function.
Agri-KingAgri-King
 
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I can find the results of death by lightning strike in Utah. That would have as much relevance in this thread as mineral toxicity.
 
People can die from drinking too much water. But also from too little.

Remember selenium toxicity as well. Too much can kill. Makes the news often when the feed mill forgets how to do arithmetic.

4 oz of mineral a day - not likely to kill. But don't feed minerals with copper to the sheep.
 
Travlr said:
Great... That's good information. Now the question is... do your cattle actually NEED supplements.
The guys selling supplements want you to think so. They don't sell any test kits or maps of areas with mineral deficiencies. They sell salt with tiny amounts of essential minerals mixed in that most animals in the country get naturally from the environment.
Click to expand...
I can’t tell you they need them, can’t tell you they don’t. But I can tell you that we typically have 98% or higher conception rates, thrifty calves that hit the ground get up and nurse, never have retained afterbirth.

You say mineral isn’t a magic bullet. That’s true. . . But GOOD mineral solves a lot of problems most producers don’t even realize they have.

Through unforeseen circumstances we have used five different brands of mineral over the last 25 years. 4 of them were winners. One was an absolute disaster. I went from pulling 2 or 3 calves a year to pulling 15. The only thing we changed was our mineral when the local feed mill changed hands. The new owners were making their own mineral products and cheaping it up to increase profit margins.
 
SBMF 2015 said:
I can’t tell you they need them, can’t tell you they don’t. But I can tell you that we typically have 98% or higher conception rates, thrifty calves that hit the ground get up and nurse, never have retained afterbirth.

You say mineral isn’t a magic bullet. That’s true. . . But GOOD mineral solves a lot of problems most producers don’t even realize they have.

Through unforeseen circumstances we have used five different brands of mineral over the last 25 years. 4 of them were winners. One was an absolute disaster. I went from pulling 2 or 3 calves a year to pulling 15. The only thing we changed was our mineral when the local feed mill changed hands. The new owners were making their own mineral products and cheaping it up to increase profit margins.
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Well, my numbers would be comparable to yours. All I used was a $9 magnesium block in the spring and a red block the rest of the year. But then... I knew my soils weren't deficient because I did my due diligence. Animals aren't likely to overdose on block salt.
 
@Travlr I can see your point about do they really need a fancy high priced mineral at $25-$35 or whatever per 50# bag? While I can’t definitely back anything up, I can say that in my 50 years I’ve heard of only one incident where a vet told a friend that lives a couple miles from me that the cattle was getting too much of something and he recommended just white salt. That was probably 25-30 years ago.
Years ago the old timers threw out white salt blocks the only exception was in late winter early spring a hi magnesium mineral was used. Once a little ways into May it was back to white salt or if somebody wanted to be fancy a yellow sulphur salt block because that was said to cut down on flies and pinkeye.
When I was young we had local reps for Moorman’s feed that come by and set you up with an order of mineral which at the time was thought to be top of the line around here. I would order an IGR mineral in summer from them.
When we no longer had their reps around I’d just get what our local feed store or co op was selling. A lot of times I’d get tight and just feed the salt blocks.
There was a going around joke that the red/brown trace mineral blocks were just that a trace. Most folks now have gotten away from the blocks, the same companies that sell the blocks sell bags of loose white salt and trace mineral salt,
Back when I told a friend that ran a dairy about our low conception rates from AI, he laughed which was kind of surprising, then he told me why. He said he’d been in the same boat several years before. He talked to his vet who laughed at him and offered to buy his heifers. Said the vet told him it was a mineral issue. Told him to get a specific kind of chelated mineral mix. He tried it and said it did help the conception rates. The mineral was a mix formulated by a vet/nutritionist in KY. I started getting it too. It didn’t help with our AI conception rates, I’m very confident there were multiple other issues going on there, but I do believe it’s helped with overall natural service conception rates and I also believe it helps avert some minor health issues.
Over the years I’d say attention to mineral was not my strong suit. When I’ve consistently kept higher end free choice minerals available to cattle, they just seem to do better all the way around.
The salt component is not as much of a percent of the ingredients in the better mineral, but it’s still enough that it acts as a limiter to keep them from getting too much at a given time. If anybody is sporadic about keeping mineral available to them then they can be salt starved and eat a lot of it in a short time, but if it’s regularly consistently available free choice to them they don’t consume as much over time nether need for salt intake is met, at least that’s my understanding,
I’ve come around to being a believer in good mineral. You’re right it is expensive.
 
4 ounces daily of a mineral which 13% calcium is so far from the 1,5% of dry matter in take it is ridiculous. A mature cow eating in the neighborhood 30 lbs of dry matter a day would need to consume 0.45 lb of calcium to get in the fatal range. That would be a little over 3 lbs of minerals per day.
 
Ky hills said:
@Travlr I can see your point about do they really need a fancy high priced mineral at $25-$35 or whatever per 50# bag? While I can’t definitely back anything up, I can say that in my 50 years I’ve heard of only one incident where a vet told a friend that lives a couple miles from me that the cattle was getting too much of something and he recommended just white salt. That was probably 25-30 years ago.
Years ago the old timers threw out white salt blocks the only exception was in late winter early spring a hi magnesium mineral was used. Once a little ways into May it was back to white salt or if somebody wanted to be fancy a yellow sulphur salt block because that was said to cut down on flies and pinkeye.
When I was young we had local reps for Moorman’s feed that come by and set you up with an order of mineral which at the time was thought to be top of the line around here. I would order an IGR mineral in summer from them.
When we no longer had their reps around I’d just get what our local feed store or co op was selling. A lot of times I’d get tight and just feed the salt blocks.
There was a going around joke that the red/brown trace mineral blocks were just that a trace. Most folks now have gotten away from the blocks, the same companies that sell the blocks sell bags of loose white salt and trace mineral salt,
Back when I told a friend that ran a dairy about our low conception rates from AI, he laughed which was kind of surprising, then he told me why. He said he’d been in the same boat several years before. He talked to his vet who laughed at him and offered to buy his heifers. Said the vet told him it was a mineral issue. Told him to get a specific kind of chelated mineral mix. He tried it and said it did help the conception rates. The mineral was a mix formulated by a vet/nutritionist in KY. I started getting it too. It didn’t help with our AI conception rates, I’m very confident there were multiple other issues going on there, but I do believe it’s helped with overall natural service conception rates and I also believe it helps avert some minor health issues.
Over the years I’d say attention to mineral was not my strong suit. When I’ve consistently kept higher end free choice minerals available to cattle, they just seem to do better all the way around.
The salt component is not as much of a percent of the ingredients in the better mineral, but it’s still enough that it acts as a limiter to keep them from getting too much at a given time. If anybody is sporadic about keeping mineral available to them then they can be salt starved and eat a lot of it in a short time, but if it’s regularly consistently available free choice to them they don’t consume as much over time nether need for salt intake is met, at least that’s my understanding,
I’ve come around to being a believer in good mineral. You’re right it is expensive.
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The only problem I had with this entire discussion was the idea of putting minerals in grain. I still don't see that as a good idea...
But thanks for the polite post. I appreciate it.
It is kind of sad that people have been sold the idea that they must do things or their cattle will under perform... and it affects what is available in the marketplace. If I was producing salt blocks and found the bagged mineral becoming more popular I'd switch too. Gotta keep up with the trends...
 
Dave said:
4 ounces daily of a mineral which 13% calcium is so far from the 1,5% of dry matter in take it is ridiculous. A mature cow eating in the neighborhood 30 lbs of dry matter a day would need to consume 0.45 lb of calcium to get in the fatal range. That would be a little over 3 lbs of minerals per day.
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You also have to factor in the natural calcium that they get from the environment. 20 to 150+ grams daily from natural grazing. A 150 grams is a third of a pound, so the difference in your example would be .12 pounds.
As said, ad infinitum, all I'm suggesting is knowledge of what you are doing and don't mix minerals with grain.
 

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