The good, the bad and the ugly?

[Little Joe]

I'm considering going to AI instead of running a bull, I only breed at most 10 cows a year, 5 in fall and 5 in spring. I finish out most of my calves for freezer beef so they stay on the place for around 18 months, including feeder and stocker heifers. Having a bull to breed that small of number really isn't feasible and it's a pain making sure the feeder heifers and the bull don't end up together. I talked to a local select sires rep that has AI'ed quite a bit for a friend of mine and my friend highly recommended him. He said based on his experience we should be able to get 3 or 4 out of 5 bred first round and rebreed the open ones on natural heat using heat patches. It will be timed AI first round. He said he would set them up the first time we do it and teach me how to do it for the future. My thought was cull anything that won't take after a second breeding and replace. I considered renting a bull but I worry about docility renting a bull and also still have to deal with my feeder and stocker heifers while the bull is there as well as it would be renting twice a year. Another factor is some of my place is just high tensile electric fence and a rented bull might not respect it. So, any of y'all done something similar, what's the good, the bad and the ugly ( besides a Clint Eastwood Movie )?

 

[Little Joe]

What are things that can be done to help conception rates? The AI tech told me what minerals he recommended that help and he said having docile cattle helps as well.

 

[Travlr]

What are things that can be done to help conception rates? The AI tech told me what minerals he recommended that help and he said having docile cattle helps as well.

Some cows will settle first time, every time. Some seem to need a bull. But a good AI tech, and I think most Select Sires salesmen are good, will make a big difference. It's just like any other profession, you want the AI guys with the best results. And you want the cows that settle reliably the first time.

 

[Stickney94]

I only AI'd my small herd the first 7 years I had them. Set them up with CIDRs and timed AI. And then called the AI tech on natural heat observation 18-24 days later. It's doable. But it does take a fair amount of handling (good facilities) and the ability to watch the cows for roughly a week when they come back into heat (and many show heat signs at night).

I've had great conception and horrible. I do think that a good mineral program is worth the expense (I use concept aid from Vitaferm). The bad conception years tend to correlate with inconsistent weather. That shows up as both large temperature swings but also large changes in my pasture conditions -- my AI tech says this affects the animals PH and can be detrimental to settling. So I allow my cows to have a lot of access to shade and ample access to dry grass hay. Just try to keep things very stress free.

 

[Little Joe]

Some cows will settle first time, every time. Some seem to need a bull. But a good AI tech, and I think most Select Sires salesmen are good, will make a big difference. It's just like any other profession, you want the AI guys with the best results. And you want the cows that settle reliably the first time.

Yeah, I have some cows that I like and it will suck to have to cull them but over time I should be able to get a herd that'll take to AI better. Might be through saving heifers from the cows that stick every time, I'm still working out all the details of how I want to go about the culling and replacing part. Anything I have to cull because they won't take AI, I will probably burger out and sale to my beef customers. Any heifers that won't take AI can just be fed out and sell on quarters. The good thing is by eliminating the bull, I can run another cow or 2, 1 extra calf will offset all the cost of the AI and some of the cost of having to cull heavier and replace not figuring the savings of feeding a bull that literally stands around and eats most of the year while not doing anything. Then there's also the elimination of the hassle of trying to keep heifers separated from the bull, I can run most of my cattle as one big group until time to start feeding my feeders.

 

[Little Joe]

I only AI'd my small herd the first 7 years I had them. Set them up with CIDRs and timed AI. And then called the AI tech on natural heat observation 18-24 days later. It's doable. But it does take a fair amount of handling (good facilities) and the ability to watch the cows for roughly a week when they come back into heat (and many show heat signs at night).

I've had great conception and horrible. I do think that a good mineral program is worth the expense (I use concept aid from Vitaferm). The bad conception years tend to correlate with inconsistent weather. That shows up as both large temperature swings but also large changes in my pasture conditions -- my AI tech says this affects the animals PH and can be detrimental to settling. So I allow my cows to have a lot of access to shade and ample access to dry grass hay. Just try to keep things very stress free.

We are going to do timed AI, but we will breed them on the heat cycle that we induced and rebreed the opens on natural detected heat cycle.

 

[SBMF 2015]

What are things that can be done to help conception rates? The AI tech told me what minerals he recommended that help and he said having docile cattle helps as well.

Almost pain staking consistency. If you feed at 7am you feed at 7am every day.

Force feed their mineral.

Breed in the evening if possible.

Breed on natural heat.

Have good fertil cows.

Have cows that don’t have silent heats.

Use a yearling str to heat check.

That’s just what I can come up with for now.

 

[Little Joe]

Almost pain staking consistency. If you feed at 7am you feed at 7am every day.

Force feed their mineral.

Breed in the evening if possible.

Breed on natural heat.

Have good fertil cows.

Have cows that don’t have silent heats.

Use a yearling str to heat check.

That’s just what I can come up with for now.

By force feed you mean mix it with some grain so they will for sure take it?
I'd like to breed on natural heats only but that would probably mean several trips for the tech which cost money. As I stated, he said we could breed anything that didn't take first time on natural heat the second time.
He said his conception rate averages around 70% on first breeding but my expectation should be around 55%.

 

[Travlr]

Force feed their mineral.

No...

For one thing, test your soils to see if you need any supplemental minerals. Ask vets in the area if there are deficient soils. Ask the local ag agent.

Most minerals, even in deficient areas, are only needed as "trace" and a small amount will do everything as needed. Feeding more mineral than necessary is like changing oil more than is necessary. Wasted money, and in fact may be detrimental.

And honestly, if people get animals that require large amounts of artificial amounts and they keep breeding them, sooner of later we will have animals that depend on and require supplementation. That wouldn't be good...

 

[simme]

Nutrition is important. BCS of 5 to 6. No thin ones and no fat ones will give better results. Feed the cows to be bred 2-3# a day starting 3 weeks or so before AI and continue for 4-6 weeks after. Those numbers are not magic, but increasing their nutrition a little prior to and after breeding should help with getting them bred and stay bred especially if they have been on a declining level of nutrition due to weather/environment or grass quality. With AI, there are lots of bulls to choose from. Some bulls have a reputation of settling cows better than others. Ask your Select Sires guy about bulls that seem to settle cows better.

Even if you only breed based on time, I would put Estrotect stickers on them when you pull the CIDR's. And heat check morning and evening. If one is in heat early relative to the timed AI time, I would try to get the guy out early to breed her. But if you can't, you will still increase your knowledge of which cows cycled and the timing of that. If a cow is in standing heat after she was time bred (does happen), you might have the opportunity to breed her again or at least know to watch closely for her next heat 18 to 24 days later.

Timed AI for heifers is at a different time than for the cows. Be aware of that if you or breeding any heifers.

Culling cows that don't settle on 2 AI services - that would cause me to have culled some good cows some years. You could decide that it is the fault of the cow if she did not settle. Some years, I get excellent results with AI. 2025 breeding of 9 head resulted in 8 settled on first service and the 9th settled on second service. (Based on heat detection/observation. Preg testing not done yet) 2024 breeding of 5 head resulted in all five settled on first service. (They all calved to the AI dates). 2023 breeding of 5 head resulted in only 2 settled on first service. Of the 3 remaining, one was bred AI 2 more times and did not settle. One was bred once more and did not settle and one was never observed in heat for AI. I was able to borrow a bull and all settled quickly to the natural service. Same management, protocol, inseminator, etc. Pretty much the same cows. My point is that I am not sure what the issue was that year, but I am not blaming the cows.

Hoping for good success for you.

On minerals - minerals are very cheap relative to risk of AI breeding. The cost of a 3 week delay in getting a cow settled or culling a cow that did not settle is FAR more than the cost of some minerals that they MIGHT not have needed. My opinion based on years of AI use. But I could be wrong, but I dang ain't gonna cut back on a few pennies of minerals.

 

[Ky hills]

I understand your situation, as that is pretty much the number of cows we have now too.
Years ago, decades actually, I had a local ABS rep that did our AI breeding. At that time we used two rounds of Lutalyse and 2 or 3 days later I watched the cattle for a half hour or so early of a morning and again late of an evening. Anything in heat I would get up and he would come and breed approximately 12 hours after I saw them in heat, we were getting around 80% conception. Fast forward to more recent times, and newer protocols with CIDR’s and Timed AI. The very best best we got was between 50%-60%, most times after it was under 50%. Then as another rep took over, the first year we got a similar percentage. Then the next year we were informed that their calendar was filling up and just had a couple open times left, So I agreed and picked the closest time. It was an unmitigated disaster. We had 60-70 head to breed both cows and heifers. Two reps from the company came to do the breeding.
We had had decent weather up to that point, then that day in May it hit over 90 degrees close to 100. The reps were a couple hours late getting there. So cattle standing around hot and then getting them through the chute.
By the time they’d all been bred I know the timing had passed on a lot of them.
We got about 20% conception. As far as the rebreed we got 0% bred after that so I had to put out the same number of bulls plus it put my calving more stretched out and later.
I had started feeding a better mineral a chelated mineral that a friend had recommended. A good mineral can help with conception rates both with AI and natural service. Another thing is they need to be in good condition, which mine typically have always been.
We tried another route with a different AI tech that I know knows what he is doing after that for my group of 10 registered Angus cows, at the time. It was another hot day, and we’d ordered semen from a different supplier that said he had found semen on a certain popular bull we wanted at the time, but we could only take 5 straws of it and had to take the other 5 of an up and coming son of that bull at the time. I don’t know if there was a handling or storage issue with that semen, but we got 0% conception. That ended my interest in ever having any AI done ever again, I was having to run almost as many bulls to get 50% or more of our cows bred so it made zero sense for me to continue to fool with AI. It’s much easier to turn a bull out than to get cows up 3-4 times through a chute.
I agree with you on being concerned about bringing in leased bulls from a stand point of disposition.
I’m actually considering, my options for future bulls, as maybe I’ll just bring in as decent of a cheaper price bull as I can find or maybe try picking up a good looking bull calf. Sometimes you can find a young bull calf that sells a split at a registered cattle sale. I’ve done that before. You have to have a place to keep him till he’s ready to use though.
There’s also a more of a wildcard idea that I haven’t done but am thinking about it for future is to watch stockyard sales and buy a good looking bull calf through the ring. A lot of unknowns with that angle but with just a few cows it’s something I may consider, for future.

 

[Travlr]

@simme makes a great point about body condition. It's also important to be in a weight gaining cycle, so going from a lower BCS to a higher BCS when breeding. You don't want them losing weight.

And about the minerals... again... I'm not saying don't use minerals, but don't push them on cows that don't need them. Know what you need instead of guessing. Don't expect minerals to be a magic solution for bad management.

 

[SBMF 2015]

By force feed you mean mix it with some grain so they will for sure take it?
I'd like to breed on natural heats only but that would probably mean several trips for the tech which cost money. As I stated, he said we could breed anything that didn't take first time on natural heat the second time.
He said his conception rate averages around 70% on first breeding but my expectation should be around 55%.

Yes, when you feed grain in the bunk just sprinkle their mineral on top. That way you know everyone gets close to their daily intake every day.
Like @simme was says mineral is cheap compared to what you are spending overall to set them up and AI.

 

[SBMF 2015]

@simme makes a great point about body condition. It's also important to be in a weight gaining cycle, so going from a lower BCS to a higher BCS when breeding. You don't want them losing weight.

And about the minerals... again... I'm not saying don't use minerals, but don't push them on cows that don't need them. Know what you need instead of guessing. Don't expect minerals to be a magic solution for bad management.

Minerals don’t replace bad management, but usually the cow herds I see around here don’t feed mineral.
This time of year when it’s cold and we’re trying to get cows to raise calves and settle. Mineral is pretty darn cheap. If we get two extra calves weaned because we fed mineral consistently. That pays for the mineral for the whole cow herd for the year.
Cows that calve in the first heat cycle have bigger calves at the end of calving season which translates into bigger calves at sale time.
Any mineral that our cows don’t need just goes through them. Doesn’t hurt them. And it’s a lot tougher to maintain them than it is to get them back to consistent levels they need.

 

[Travlr]

Any mineral that our cows don’t need just goes through them. Doesn’t hurt them. And it’s a lot tougher to maintain them than it is to get them back to consistent levels they need.

"Cattle can receive too many minerals from commercial supplements, leading to severe health issues or death, says the Kansas Veterinary Diagnostic Laboratory. Over-supplementation often occurs when cattle crave specific components or consume too much for the flavor, causing toxicities in trace minerals like copper, selenium, or zinc, which can cause severe liver damage or death."

Look, I'm not saying you shouldn't use supplemental minerals. I'm just saying that you should KNOW they are needed before using them. All of us have anecdotal stories and experiences. My own would tell me that a lot of people are looking for a magic pill to cure all ailments... or to blame if things don't go right. Minerals can be important. Or they can be a waste of money and by expecting them to be a magic pill people might be missing what they could have done with better management.

I used minerals my self, but mainly for grass tetany which was a problem in my area. And My conception rates and rates of gain were great.

I certainly would not sprinkle them in grain so cattle would eat more than they need.

 

[mwj]

How in the world would you know they are getting to much of the mineral.Would you have a clue what the daily recommended consumption be for his mineral? When he said ''sprinkle'' I did not envision him shoveling on a lethal dose.

 

[Travlr]

How in the world would you know they are getting to much of the mineral.Would you have a clue what the daily recommended consumption be for his mineral? When he said ''sprinkle'' I did not envision him shoveling on a lethal dose.

Do you take a supplemental vitamin? I know a lot of people that do. I know one person that spends $400 a month on supplements. And that doesn't include all the prescription medications she takes. I suspect she gets rid of most of the supplemental stuff, and the dollars she spends, in her toilet.

I take a B12 supplement and it's helped my energy level. When I go to the doctor the nurses are always surprised that at my age I'm not taking any prescription drugs.

Minerals are used to supply "trace" amounts. A "trace" amount in a supplement refers to a minute essential quantity of a mineral required by a body. Typically less than 100 mg per day. Sometimes measured in parts per million and may be less than a teaspoon per lifetime.

Again, I'm NOT saying minerals are not necessary... but that they are not a magic pill to fix all problems. They should be needed before being used. But the people selling minerals will tell you it's "cheap insurance". I've never seen cheap insurance... especially if someone is selling me something that isn't necessary.

 

[Travlr]

Do you take a supplemental vitamin? I know a lot of people that do. I know one person that spends $400 a month on supplements. And that doesn't include all the prescription medications she takes. I suspect she gets rid of most of the supplemental stuff, and the dollars she spends, in her toilet.

I take a B12 supplement and it's helped my energy level. When I go to the doctor the nurses are always surprised that at my age I'm not taking any prescription drugs.

Minerals are used to supply "trace" amounts. A "trace" amount in a supplement refers to a minute essential quantity of a mineral required by a body. Typically less than 100 mg per day. Sometimes measured in parts per million and may be less than a teaspoon per lifetime.

Again, I'm NOT saying minerals are not necessary... but that they are not a magic pill to fix all problems. They should be needed before being used. But the people selling minerals will tell you it's "cheap insurance". I've never seen cheap insurance... especially if someone is selling me something that isn't necessary.

I would also bet that if you cut the suggested daily ration your cattle would be getting a more appropriate dosage anyways. (Don't quote me on this because I don't know what the claim is on your bag of minerals... or even if that amount is actually in the bag.) There are plenty of people that take less than the recommended dosages even when they do take supplements, and they are fine. More of something you don't need isn't going to make you healthier.

You do realize that most animals are adapted to thrive on what they find in their environment, right? Supplements are supposed to be only as much as can be discarded easily by the body when only as much as is actually needed has been utilized.

 

[mwj]

But you are taking a daily vitamin because you ''think'' it is helping. Does that not seem ironic to you?

 

[Travlr]

But you are taking a daily vitamin because you ''think'' it is helping. Does that not seem ironic to you?

Sure... but only if it's not really working. What would it be called if it IS working?

Kind of like people "thinking" mega doses of mineral are working... as opposed to finding out if they actually are necessary.