Whick one of these tub would you use?
- Thread starter tom4018
- Start date
Depends how much extra protein you need - how bad the hay really is. Also - how badly the cattle need the protein. Dry cows? developing heifers? Cows in milk?
The top one warns that there is no salt added so make sure they get salt with that one.
The top one warns that there is no salt added so make sure they get salt with that one.
angus9259":2rcl3c7w said:
Majority of hay tested at 10% protein with a RFV of 71. The hay was pretty mature due to a rainy period. They are not eating it real good, got some that test better but not near enough. Cows are in good shape, got about half with calves on them, a few heifers in the group with a young bull. Also got some other heifers separated that I try to give the better hay too with a little bit of feed every day. I keep mineral out all the time. I am actually using one of these tubs but trying to see if I need to use the other, about $20 difference in the tubs.
skyhightree1
Well-known member
TB shouldn't be far off from giving you an answer.
sim.-ang.king
Well-known member
Is the SS a baked tub? If not I would use the Purina tub since your already feeding mineral.
sim.-ang.king
Well-known member
I still might go with the purina tub, the lower fiber, and 12% fat is going to provide an energy boost. I think they have a tub that is high fat, lower protein, and lower urea. Have to research that more.
But all and all you would be better off with hand feeding if you can.
But all and all you would be better off with hand feeding if you can.
TexasBred
Well-known member
If they are the really the cooked tubs and anticipated consumption for both is about the same I'd probably go with the Purina tub too even though it probably gets most of it's protein from feather meal which is low quality protein. More urea but also much more fat which adds energy. Wish I could see the list of ingredients on the other tub.sim.-ang.king":3qq0xvqk said:
Hopefully consumption will only be around a lb. because that 10% hay won't need a lot of supplementation.
dieselbeef
Well-known member
I was thinking 10% hay is pretty good
John SD
Well-known member
Here are some of my thoughts. Bear in mind I'm still on my first cup of coffee this morning :lol:
I prefer to go by the old fashioned "cow pie" test as to whether the cattle are getting enough protein by following these basics
A hard clumpy manure deposit indicates low protein.
A softer textured pile indicates adequate protein, which is what you should be shooting for.
A sloppy and spattered manure deposit indicates excess protein. In winter, this would be overfeeding.
Adjust feed quality levels accordingly. Tubs are convenient but most expensive way to supplement. Cake/ear corn doesn't require infrastructure and costs less. Cracked corn/DDG/SBM probably the most bang for the buck but likely needs to be fed in bunks to minimize waste.
A mature cow in early gestation really needs more energy than protein. She needs to maintain body heat and the calf inside is developing slowly. Her nutritional level needs to be ramped up in the last trimester of pregnancy.
When her calf hits the ground and starts nursing that is when she needs to get the best you've got in order to feed that calf, maintain her own body condition, and breed back in a timely manner. Regardless, a good water supply and free choice salt/mineral should be available at all times :idea:
I prefer to go by the old fashioned "cow pie" test as to whether the cattle are getting enough protein by following these basics
A hard clumpy manure deposit indicates low protein.
A softer textured pile indicates adequate protein, which is what you should be shooting for.
A sloppy and spattered manure deposit indicates excess protein. In winter, this would be overfeeding.
Adjust feed quality levels accordingly. Tubs are convenient but most expensive way to supplement. Cake/ear corn doesn't require infrastructure and costs less. Cracked corn/DDG/SBM probably the most bang for the buck but likely needs to be fed in bunks to minimize waste.
A mature cow in early gestation really needs more energy than protein. She needs to maintain body heat and the calf inside is developing slowly. Her nutritional level needs to be ramped up in the last trimester of pregnancy.
When her calf hits the ground and starts nursing that is when she needs to get the best you've got in order to feed that calf, maintain her own body condition, and breed back in a timely manner. Regardless, a good water supply and free choice salt/mineral should be available at all times :idea:
Seeing as how fat/energy drives reproduction, and they can't store excess protein, I would always err on the side of more fat. A lot of people don't realize that and just think "protein, protein, protein!" and probably end up throwing a lot of money away feeding products that have more protein than they really need.
Katpau
Well-known member
I think we all worry from time to time whether our cows are getting what they need. Putting out one of those tubs probably does more good for our peace of mind than it does nutritionally for the cows. 10% Protein grass hay is actually pretty good.
I test my hay and attempt to balance for protein, TDN, and minerals. Based on the results of those tests, I use a table called "Basic Nutrient Requirements of Cattle" that I received from the University Extension. You can probably find this table on-line. This table for example shows that a 1300 pound cow in the last quarter of pregnancy requires a ration with about 7.7% protein. (About 1.8 pounds protein per day base on a dry matter intake of 23.6 pounds per day) That cow, if she has average milking ability, would require 9.1% protein when nursing her young calf, and up to 11.2% protein if she is a heavy milking cow. Your hay should be good in most cases. The RFV you mention is not a relevant number for grass hay. That is a value that is ONLY relevant when comparing Alfalfa. The number compares the alfalfa to the average feed value of alfalfa in full bloom. The number will be higher than 100 in pre-bloom alfalfa, and lower in alfalfa that is further along. It means nothing when used on grass. You should look at the TDN. (Total Digestible Nutrients) The minimum TDN for a 1300 pound cow in the last third of pregnancy is 52.7%. An average milking cow in the first 3-4 months postpartum needs 55.1% TDN and a high milking cow may need up to 62.6% TDN.
I supplement protein by feeding alfalfa. My hay sometimes tests as low as 4%. I feed my low protein hay for two days. On the third day I feed enough alfalfa to bring my AVERAGE three day protein level to the required amount for that point in time. They receive low protein two days and high protein on the third, but when added up and divided by three, it equals the correct amount of protein. Numerous studies have shown that protein will have the same affect when it is fed like this as it would have if fed evenly each day. Because cows are ruminants, they are able to make use of the protein more efficiently than other animals. I also use the "POOP TEST". No matter how much calculating I do to figure my hay ration, sometimes the poop will tell me I'm wrong. If my alfalfa supplement still results in high stiff piles of poop, it means I need more protein. If they get too loose, it is time to back off.
I test my hay and attempt to balance for protein, TDN, and minerals. Based on the results of those tests, I use a table called "Basic Nutrient Requirements of Cattle" that I received from the University Extension. You can probably find this table on-line. This table for example shows that a 1300 pound cow in the last quarter of pregnancy requires a ration with about 7.7% protein. (About 1.8 pounds protein per day base on a dry matter intake of 23.6 pounds per day) That cow, if she has average milking ability, would require 9.1% protein when nursing her young calf, and up to 11.2% protein if she is a heavy milking cow. Your hay should be good in most cases. The RFV you mention is not a relevant number for grass hay. That is a value that is ONLY relevant when comparing Alfalfa. The number compares the alfalfa to the average feed value of alfalfa in full bloom. The number will be higher than 100 in pre-bloom alfalfa, and lower in alfalfa that is further along. It means nothing when used on grass. You should look at the TDN. (Total Digestible Nutrients) The minimum TDN for a 1300 pound cow in the last third of pregnancy is 52.7%. An average milking cow in the first 3-4 months postpartum needs 55.1% TDN and a high milking cow may need up to 62.6% TDN.
I supplement protein by feeding alfalfa. My hay sometimes tests as low as 4%. I feed my low protein hay for two days. On the third day I feed enough alfalfa to bring my AVERAGE three day protein level to the required amount for that point in time. They receive low protein two days and high protein on the third, but when added up and divided by three, it equals the correct amount of protein. Numerous studies have shown that protein will have the same affect when it is fed like this as it would have if fed evenly each day. Because cows are ruminants, they are able to make use of the protein more efficiently than other animals. I also use the "POOP TEST". No matter how much calculating I do to figure my hay ration, sometimes the poop will tell me I'm wrong. If my alfalfa supplement still results in high stiff piles of poop, it means I need more protein. If they get too loose, it is time to back off.
TexasBred
Well-known member
The also receive very low energy, low digestible hay those two days you feed the poor quality hay and probably lose weight, depending on their work load and weather conditions. "Poop" test is helpful but don't be fooled by it.
JMJ Farms
Well-known member
A new index called Relative Forage Quality (RFQ) has been developed by researchers as a replacement for RFV to provide a better index of how a forage will perform in an animal diet.
The two indexes are conceptually the same except that Total Digestible Nutrients (TDN) would replace DDM in the RFQ index calculation.
You should be able to use this to convert your RFV to RFQ which would help you figure out what you've got as far as quality. I had some Bermuda grass hay last year that tested 144 RFQ, which is pretty dang good. Most of it this year tested around 110 and 12.5% with TDN of around 55. Not the best hay but good enough for beef cows. I figured out that I was trying to make hay that was too high in protein last year and it was hurting my bottom line. Now I cut on 5 week intervals instead of 4 weeks (Weather plays a role in this). Protein and quality drops but it works better for my pocketbook.
The two indexes are conceptually the same except that Total Digestible Nutrients (TDN) would replace DDM in the RFQ index calculation.
You should be able to use this to convert your RFV to RFQ which would help you figure out what you've got as far as quality. I had some Bermuda grass hay last year that tested 144 RFQ, which is pretty dang good. Most of it this year tested around 110 and 12.5% with TDN of around 55. Not the best hay but good enough for beef cows. I figured out that I was trying to make hay that was too high in protein last year and it was hurting my bottom line. Now I cut on 5 week intervals instead of 4 weeks (Weather plays a role in this). Protein and quality drops but it works better for my pocketbook.
Katpau
Well-known member
You are correct that feeding 4% protein hay that was low in total digestible nutrients for two days out of 3 would be a bad idea. I do ensure they receive the TDN they require every day. It is only the protein that is fed unevenly. I am located in Western Oregon where frequent spring rains make it difficult to get hay up at the right time, so it is often over mature at harvest. Our hay barn has feeders all around it and I am able to feed some ryegrass screening pellets on the cement floor along with my hay, so my actual protein level on any day is usually not less than 6%, and the total TDN never drops below the required minimum. The screening pellets will test close to .70 for TDN and the grass hay, while low in protein, does not seem to suffer any in total digestible nutrients, and will sometime test higher than the alfalfa for TDN. I calculate the total digestible nutrients needed in pounds and make sure they receive at least that amount each day. I also calculate the number of pounds of protein they will need over three days and make sure they have received that amount by the time three days have passed. My heifers are fed separate from mature cows and they get hay and screening pellets that have been balanced for their needs. I do feed them the same each day. I feed my alfalfa only every third day because studies indicate it works as well and if I mix grass and alfalfa the cows will push the grass out of the way, wasting some, and will move around fighting with each other looking for the good stuff once they have cleaned up the alfalfa in front of them.TexasBred":36dalwqe said:
TexasBred
Well-known member
Low quality hay never has a good TDN period !!! And if your grass hay is as good as your alfalfa then your wasting money on alfalfa. How do you determine energy needs??
JMJ Farms
Well-known member
TexasBred":lea4lwzf said:
Been my experience also. If you have low quality hay I'm not saying not to feed it. Just make sure you know what you've got and supplement accordingly.
Katpau
Well-known member
I do the best I can with what I can get and the cows are all in good flesh, as are most cows in the county eating the same or worse. I could get better hay from eastern Oregon, but the cost of trucking it over the mountain would make it much more expensive. Still, I would be willing to do that if I could find someone willing to deliver it to my hay barn. There is no way to get a normal size hay truck to my main hay barn. The closest I can get anyone to agree to deliver hay would be 1 ½ miles from it. This means we would need to reload and make multiple trips to carry and stack in the barn. My current seller brings it in about 7 tons at a time and stacks it for me.
I test using the “Dairy One” forage testing lab out of Ithaca New York. Below is an example of several forage tests
2014.
Grass….. DM 93.8, Protein…As Fed 3.9 DM 4.2, TDN…as fed 54 DM 57
Alfalfa… DM 92.3, Protein…As Fed 17.8 DM 19.3, TDN…as fed 54 DM 58, relative feed value 129
2015
Grass….. DM 90.3, Protein...As Fed 8.2 DM 9.1, TDN...as fed 56 DM 62
Alfalfa… DM 89.4, Protein...As Fed 20.8 DM 23.3, TDN...as fed 55 DM 61, relative feed value 168
I am always willing to learn, and I appreciate advice. According to these tests there is little difference in TDN between the low protein hay and the alfalfa. The 2014 alfalfa was a bit stalky (not bad), but the 2015 is beautiful looking fine stemmed alfalfa hay. The 2014 rye grass hay looked like straw and I complained. The continual spring rains had made it almost impossible to put up hay and he did the best he could. He ended up giving me a big discount on this years hay to try to make it right, even though I said that was unnecessary.
What do these tests mean? Do you think the tests are wrong? As you can see, In 2015 the rye grass appears to have slightly better TDN than the alfalfa.
My tests do not provide RFQ values. Is there a better lab I should use? This one was recommended to me.
I test using the “Dairy One” forage testing lab out of Ithaca New York. Below is an example of several forage tests
2014.
Grass….. DM 93.8, Protein…As Fed 3.9 DM 4.2, TDN…as fed 54 DM 57
Alfalfa… DM 92.3, Protein…As Fed 17.8 DM 19.3, TDN…as fed 54 DM 58, relative feed value 129
2015
Grass….. DM 90.3, Protein...As Fed 8.2 DM 9.1, TDN...as fed 56 DM 62
Alfalfa… DM 89.4, Protein...As Fed 20.8 DM 23.3, TDN...as fed 55 DM 61, relative feed value 168
I am always willing to learn, and I appreciate advice. According to these tests there is little difference in TDN between the low protein hay and the alfalfa. The 2014 alfalfa was a bit stalky (not bad), but the 2015 is beautiful looking fine stemmed alfalfa hay. The 2014 rye grass hay looked like straw and I complained. The continual spring rains had made it almost impossible to put up hay and he did the best he could. He ended up giving me a big discount on this years hay to try to make it right, even though I said that was unnecessary.
What do these tests mean? Do you think the tests are wrong? As you can see, In 2015 the rye grass appears to have slightly better TDN than the alfalfa.
My tests do not provide RFQ values. Is there a better lab I should use? This one was recommended to me.
