What's the deal????? (venting on fuel costs)

[aplusmnt]

And shutting down refineries for summer maintenance sounds just like what they did during the electricity crises in CA several years ago. Later we found out they were manipulating the system to drive up prices. I think the same thing is happening in the oil industry. But since the Attorney General won't investigate, even though most state AGs have asked him to, we'll have to wait for an answer.

So now you admit that supply and demand is the reason for price increases? By saying they shut down refineries to increase prices shows you accept that it is supply and demand controlling the prices. Do they shut them down to push up prices? I do not know, maybe they do maybe they don't. Maybe the refineries are so out of date and old that they do break down on their own.

Business all over the world manipulate the supply side of their commodity to push prices to were they want them. I believe Cattlemen and Farmers do the same thing. Why is it unfair when oil companies do it? :roll:

Good for the EPA. Our our quality stinks in many places. When we lived in Denver, people with respiratory problems had to stay inside.

If you are happy with the EPA standards pushing up prices of gasoline for the sake of the environment. Then that is your prerogative and I can respect it even if I do not agree.

But do not be a Cry baby about the Price per gallon then! Most die hard Environmentalist believe the price of gas should be even higher so we will use less and protect us from Global Warming.

Seems you want your cake and eat it also! :roll:

I'll second that. In fact hearings are scheduled to look into oil company profits. At the very least, to "encourage" the oil companies to put some of their profits into new refineries here in the US. And, yes, there are places they can be built. If they're not willing to build them, then perhaps they'll lose some of their tax breaks.

Refineries being denied is a matter of public record, not to mention the tough regulations that the EPA has put on them. They can not expand on existing sites because then they would not meet EPA standards. And then if they are allowed to build new refineries they are limited in size because they would not be able to meet environmental regulations. And small refineries are unprofitable.

Then you have the years of red tape, the years to build them at the hope that they market will stay the same. Say they take 7 years to build a refinery then the Government says all gas has to be E85 or something else. They spend Billions of dollars at the risk that 7-10 years down the road the game will still be the same. That the market has not changed nor has the Government regulated them so much more and their current 10 year plan will not work.

Manure. Oil companies won't drill in ANWAR, even if Congress allows them to. They've said so. There's not enough oil there to make it worth their while. Now, if the US taxpayer pays for the infastructure, they'd be happy to reap the profits, but I don't think the American taxpayer is going to be receptive to a suggestion like that.

Prove this!

If the Oil companies will not drill in Alaska then why has republicans been fighting to for years to let them? Only to be blocked by the Dem's.

Plus you ignored my comment about offshore drilling? Do you not think the oil companies want to drill more offshore also? :roll:

Congress can correct all them problems. President can not do much about them.

Not if the President vetoes.

First they have to send him the Legislation then you can cry about him vetoing it.

Do you really see the president Vetoing legislation that allows more drilling in Alaska and Offshore, a national blend or less EPA regulations? :roll: :roll: (double roll for that one)

If he did it would be because they threw in maybe 20 BILLION dollars of Pork like they did with the War funding bill :roll:

 

[Frankie]

Sorry I did not answer you in a timely enough matter, decided to take kids to eat Pizza since they got out of school early being their last day. :roll:

Right. :roll:

I can prove that I will admit when I am wrong on here! Can you? I do not ignore things when the discussion goes in a direction I am not liking. Can you say the same thing?

What does that have to do with anything? You obviously were wrong and I proved it. What else can you do but admit it since I called you out?

You are right saying 100's was an exaggeration. What I found was 40 different blends in 2004 close to your 38. And I would say with all the different states adding E10 and E85 to the mix and then taking into consideration the different blends of diesel and bio-diesel that the refineries probably make 40 to 60 different blends through out the year now days.

See, you're still doing it. "refineries probably make 40 to 60 different blends...." Where's your proof?

My exaggeration and off the cuff remark of 100's vs 40 to 60 does not change the facts of my comment. If congress would nationalize and have a national blend it would solve many of the problems we have with supply especially during summer.

Your exaggeration makes every other claim you make suspect. Why should anyone take your argument seriously when you've ADMITTED that you aren't truthful? BTW, no, I don't think gasoline in all regions should be the same. Having lived in the east side of the Rocky Mtns, I can tell you the atmosphere is much different than here in OK. The city started using propane in their busses and created car pool lanes while we were there. I haven't followed their progress, but I think their air quality is much better. Variations in gas can make a difference in the health of the population in a particular region of the country.

It would lower prices and stabilize the market. Any educated person knows this to be true? Are you educated? Do you disagree that this would not result in lower and more stable prices?

See, you throw out these claims "any educated person knows this to be true?". So if I disagree that makes me an ueducated fool? Well, guess what, you won't bully me into agreeing. If we can improve air quality by using different blends of gasoline and it improves the health of the population, we'd come out ahead because of medical costs. BTW, I guess you read my link that John Kerry proposed simplifying the many different regulations covering gasoline blends? Why hasn't this Administration done something about it? They had a subservent Congress for years. They could have taken care of it if they actually wanted to. They didn't; they wanted to continue to use it as a "whipping boy" for gasoline prices. And people like you who throw out their talking points "over a hundred different blends" continue to enable them.

As for not allowing the states to regulate themselves. Well many things are controlled on a national level why not Gasoline blends and EPA standards?

Sure. Why not let the Feds regulate everything? :roll:

 

[Alice]

Frankie, that cheap shot about being uneducated. That's simply the pot calling the kettle black...and a great deal of projection. 8)

Alice

 

[Frankie]

So now you admit that supply and demand is the reason for price increases? By saying they shut down refineries to increase prices shows you accept that it is supply and demand controlling the prices. Do they shut them down to push up prices? I do not know, maybe they do maybe they don't. Maybe the refineries are so out of date and old that they do break down on their own.

It's not supply and demand when they deliberetly close down plants. They're manipulating the supply. And we won't know if that's true until someone investigates. That's the Attorney Genera's job. But he's too busy covering his behind on the lies he's been caught telling to Congress and to us.

Business all over the world manipulate the supply side of their commodity to push prices to were they want them. I believe Cattlemen and Farmers do the same thing. Why is it unfair when oil companies do it? :roll:

If farmers maniuplated the supply of wheat and the price of bread went through the roof, you can bet the Attorney General would be on them like a duck on a Junebug. But not oil/gasoline.

If you are happy with the EPA standards pushing up prices of gasoline for the sake of the environment. Then that is your prerogative and I can respect it even if I do not agree.

But do not be a Cry baby about the Price per gallon then! Most die hard Environmentalist believe the price of gas should be even higher so we will use less and protect us from Global Warming.

Seems you want your cake and eat it also! :roll:

But I don't believe that EPA standards have moved gas to today's prices. I don't think there has been any or many increases in standards since Bush became President, but gasoline has doubled in price here. So you can't blame it on the EPA.

Refineries being denied is a matter of public record, not to mention the tough regulations that the EPA has put on them. They can not expand on existing sites because then they would not meet EPA standards. And then if they are allowed to build new refineries they are limited in size because they would not be able to meet environmental regulations. And small refineries are unprofitable.

Show me the public record where refineries have been routinely refused building permission. Environmental regulations are not all bad. I live in oil country. If not for EPA regulations, this country wouldn't be fit to live in.

Then you have the years of red tape, the years to build them at the hope that they market will stay the same. Say they take 7 years to build a refinery then the Government says all gas has to be E85 or something else. They spend Billions of dollars at the risk that 7-10 years down the road the game will still be the same. That the market has not changed nor has the Government regulated them so much more and their current 10 year plan will not work.

More excuses and talking points. The fact is oil companies have made more money by shipping oil out of this country to other places and shipping gasoline in than by spending the money on building clean, reliable, refineries. That's the bottom line: profit.

Prove this!

"A Bush adviser says the major oil companies have a dimmer view of the refuge's prospects than the administration does. "If the government gave them the leases for free they wouldn't take them," said the adviser, who would speak only anonymously because of his position. "No oil company really cares about ANWR," the adviser said, using an acronym for the refuge, pronounced "an-war.""

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/21/polit ... 1266728400"%02ner=rssnyt&pagewanted=print&position=

If the Oil companies will not drill in Alaska then why has republicans been fighting to for years to let them? Only to be blocked by the Dem's.

Plus you ignored my comment about offshore drilling? Do you not think the oil companies want to drill more offshore also? :roll:

Republicans keep it as a hot topic for people like you. People who buy into their anti-environment basis and don't bother to check out the facts. And because only recently has the real value of the oil in ANWAR been acknowledged. There's not nearly as much there as has been claimed. That's why oil companies are reluctant to spend the big bucks to go after it. Plus some of may be under water by the time they get started drilling because of climate warming. That's more expensive drilling.

If Florida agrees to offshore drilling, I don't care. It's not my sands and tourist $$ that will be affected if the EXXON Valdize drops a load of oil on the shore.

First they have to send him the Legislation then you can cry about him vetoing it.

Do you really see the president Vetoing legislation that allows more drilling in Alaska and Offshore, a national blend or less EPA regulations? :roll: :roll: (double roll for that one)

Nope. Do you see this Congress sending him such a bill?

If he did it would be because they threw in maybe 20 BILLION dollars of Pork like they did with the War funding bill :roll:

It's probably less pork than the Republican Congress spent.

 

[Frankie]

Frankie, that cheap shot about being uneducated. That's simply the pot calling the kettle black...and a great deal of projection. 8)

Alice

We're probably getting too political, so I'm going to stop. I just like to tweak people like aplusmnt when they throw out these "facts." When called on them, they are often truly surprised to find they aren't actually facts, just talking points fed to them through emails and political propoganda.

 

[aplusmnt]

You are calling me a liar? on taking my kids to lunch? Why would I need or care to lie to you? Beside look at the posting times IT WAS LUNCH TIME!

Besides I never back down from a debate, unlike you who uses your Moderator powers to lock threads once you are in the hot seat. ;-)

I did not lie about 100's I spoke off the cuff throwing out a figure. Maybe it is wrong, I have no idea exactly how many blends are being used now probably no one knows for sure. I am sure 3 years later we are using a lot more blends due to all the different ethanol plants through out the states producing both E10 and E85. Plus with many refineries making Diesel and bio diesel. 100's was inaccurate but 40 or more is a large enough number to prove my point!!!

Government Accountability Office (GAO) Found

The proliferation of special gasoline blends has put stress on the gasoline supply system and raised costs, affecting operations at refineries, pipelines, and storage terminals. Once produced, different blends must be kept separate throughout shipping and delivery, reducing the capacity of pipelines and storage terminal facilities, which were originally designed to
handle fewer products. This reduces efficiency and raises costs. In the past, local supply disruptions could be addressed quickly by bringing fuel from nearby locations; now however, because the use of these fuels are isolated, additional supplies of special blends may be hundreds of miles away

You can deny it all you want, but most thinking people know this makes sense. And you can hang on to the fact I said 100's instead of ten's and divert people away from the facts or you can admit that the numerous blends have an affect on gas prices.

And as for states and cities needing different blends, I am sure there is a need for a few different ones. But 40 or more? NO maybe 3. Considering what ever works for Chicago or LA will work for Tulsa. Pick the best 3 blends and nationalize it and we as consumers will be the better for it.

Or as you Dem's want we can sue OPEC, sue the Oil Companies. Raise taxes, take away tax breaks and all that will be done is more Government revenue and even higher prices at the pump. :roll:

Why do you have such a problem with the fed regulating the EPA standards? You have no problem with them regulating oil prices? Then why do you have a problem with them regulating air quality? Or do you want to pick and choose which things the Feds can do and not do?

 

[aplusmnt]

Frankie, that cheap shot about being uneducated. That's simply the pot calling the kettle black...and a great deal of projection. 8)

Alice

Alice Go read a book (to quote from Caustics archives)! Then maybe you can articulate for yourself instead of being Frankie's YEA YEA girl! ;-)

 

[Gate Opener]

It all boils down to the oil companies charging whatever they want to and using whatever excuse they want to use to justify the price.

As far as someone making money, the guys price gouging selling the generators to people who need them would make lots of money. Does that make it right? Don't think so.

I am leaving at that since I have to pack.

 

[Alice]

It all boils down to the oil companies charging whatever they want to and using whatever excuse they want to use to justify the price.

As far as someone making money, the guys price gouging selling the generators to people who need them would make lots of money. Does that make it right? Don't think so.

I am leaving at that since I have to pack.

Well, at the risk of sounding like your Yeah Yeah girl, :lol2: I'm going to have to totally agree with you, Gate Opener.

Alice

 

[Alice]

Frankie, that cheap shot about being uneducated. That's simply the pot calling the kettle black...and a great deal of projection. 8)

Alice

Alice Go read a book (to quote from Caustics archives)! Then maybe you can articulate for yourself instead of being Frankie's YEA YEA girl! ;-)

Tsk, Tsk, Tsk... :lol2:

Alice

 

[aplusmnt]

Frankie, that cheap shot about being uneducated. That's simply the pot calling the kettle black...and a great deal of projection. 8)

Alice

We're probably getting too political, so I'm going to stop. I just like to tweak people like aplusmnt when they throw out these "facts." When called on them, they are often truly surprised to find they aren't actually facts, just talking points fed to them through emails and political propoganda.

Probably best we do before someone locks it ;-)

Besides cry babies are hard to reason with due to they can not hear reason over their endless crying.

If gas prices increase then drive less or make more money. Stand up for yourself instead of looking for the Government to change your diapers for you!

 

[Campground Cattle]

Prices jumped due the outage of a major unit that produces 3% of the U.S. gasoline supply. The unit had to be shutdown to repair a mechanical problem. Valero also had a refinery shutdown due to a power failure as well.

 

[aplusmnt]

It all boils down to the oil companies charging whatever they want to and using whatever excuse they want to use to justify the price.

As far as someone making money, the guys price gouging selling the generators to people who need them would make lots of money. Does that make it right? Don't think so.

I am leaving at that since I have to pack.

I would agree if they raised prices during a national catastrophe. But in day to day operation they have ever right to charge as they please. No different than any other commodity. If steak gets to high then people do not eat it. If you can not afford gas then make changes.

The biggest thing that people will not admit because they bury their heads in the sand and wait for the government to help them.

Is that gas prices are in line with inflation, profits of oil companies are in line for the dollars they invest (its called profit margin). These are facts that can easily be checked! Don't bury your head in the sand, go find the answers for yourself.

If you do not like looking at those big numbers the oil companies put up then blame Clinton for allowing some to merge.

It is nice to see companies making money, a lot better than them laying off people and shutting the doors. Would you rather the oil companies struggle and lay off workers like the Auto industry is doing? Oil companies put a lot of money back into the economy, do not be so quick to want to shoot yourself in the foot.

 

[Campground Cattle]

Prices jumped due the outage of a major unit that produces 3% of the U.S. gasoline supply. The unit had to be shutdown to repair a mechanical problem. Valero also had a refinery shutdown due to a power failure as well.

Yeah? And Enron claimed similar problems while they defrauding consumers out of millions.

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2002/may20 ... -m10.shtml

IMO, the oil/gas companies are doing the same thing.

Ignorance is bliss you are still having problems with that supply and demand except on CAB.

 

[Alice]

Frankie, that cheap shot about being uneducated. That's simply the pot calling the kettle black...and a great deal of projection. 8)

Alice

We're probably getting too political, so I'm going to stop. I just like to tweak people like aplusmnt when they throw out these "facts." When called on them, they are often truly surprised to find they aren't actually facts, just talking points fed to them through emails and political propoganda.

I don't know that I'd waste my time with that, Frankie...altho the more he insults and bullies, the more credibility he loses.

Besides cry babies are hard to reason with due to they can not hear reason over their endless crying.

If gas prices increase then drive less or make more money. Stand up for yourself instead of looking for the Government to change your diapers for you!

I mean, what a classy, well thought out, and highly educated argument! :lol2:

Alice

 

[Frankie]

Prices jumped due the outage of a major unit that produces 3% of the U.S. gasoline supply. The unit had to be shutdown to repair a mechanical problem. Valero also had a refinery shutdown due to a power failure as well.

Yeah? Enron gave much the same excuses while they manipulated the market and stole billions from consumers.

IMO, the oil/gas companies are doing the same thing.

Links:
http://foi.missouri.edu/usenergypolicies/mystenron.html
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/06/ ... 0626.shtml
http://dir.salon.com/story/news/feature ... index.html
http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/ ... gi/37/8796

 

[Campground Cattle]

It all boils down to the oil companies charging whatever they want to and using whatever excuse they want to use to justify the price.

As far as someone making money, the guys price gouging selling the generators to people who need them would make lots of money. Does that make it right? Don't think so.

I am leaving at that since I have to pack.

I would agree if they raised prices during a national catastrophe. But in day to day operation they have ever right to charge as they please. No different than any other commodity. If steak gets to high then people do not eat it. If you can not afford gas then make changes.

The biggest thing that people will not admit because they bury their heads in the sand and wait for the government to help them.

Is that gas prices are in line with inflation, profits of oil companies are in line for the dollars they invest (its called profit margin). These are facts that can easily be checked! Don't bury your head in the sand, go find the answers for yourself.

If you do not like looking at those big numbers the oil companies put up then blame Clinton for allowing some to merge.

It is nice to see companies making money, a lot better than them laying off people and shutting the doors. Would you rather the oil companies struggle and lay off workers like the Auto industry is doing? Oil companies put a lot of money back into the economy, do not be so quick to want to shoot yourself in the foot.

Clinton virtually destroyed the US refining lost over 40,000 American jobs due to mergers. The EPA has resulted in the S/D of countless refineries. Casper Wy, Wood River, Sugar Creek Mo. Eldorado Ak. Neodosha Ks. these are just a few I can think of off the top of my head. Gets to be rough when you want your cake and eat it to.

 

[Frankie]

It all boils down to the oil companies charging whatever they want to and using whatever excuse they want to use to justify the price.

As far as someone making money, the guys price gouging selling the generators to people who need them would make lots of money. Does that make it right? Don't think so.

I am leaving at that since I have to pack.

I would agree if they raised prices during a national catastrophe. But in day to day operation they have ever right to charge as they please. No different than any other commodity. If steak gets to high then people do not eat it. If you can not afford gas then make changes.

The biggest thing that people will not admit because they bury their heads in the sand and wait for the government to help them.

Is that gas prices are in line with inflation, profits of oil companies are in line for the dollars they invest (its called profit margin). These are facts that can easily be checked! Don't bury your head in the sand, go find the answers for yourself.

If you do not like looking at those big numbers the oil companies put up then blame Clinton for allowing some to merge.

It is nice to see companies making money, a lot better than them laying off people and shutting the doors. Would you rather the oil companies struggle and lay off workers like the Auto industry is doing? Oil companies put a lot of money back into the economy, do not be so quick to want to shoot yourself in the foot.

Clinton virtually destroyed the US refining lost over 40,000 American jobs due to mergers. The EPA has resulted in the S/D of countless refineries. Casper Wy, Wood River, Sugar Creek Mo. Eldorado Ak. Neodosha Ks. these are just a few I can think of off the top of my head. Gets to be rough when you want your cake and eat it to.

Yeah, yeah, we all know. Bush has been president for six years. Gasoline prices have doubled here in that six years. Oil company profits are higher than some country's GNP, and it's all Bill Clinton's fault. :roll:

When George HW Bush was president, independent oil producers here in OK begged him to put a $3 per barrel tax on imported oil. He refused and many of them went out of business or sold out to the biggies. The ties between the Bushs and the oil industry go back a long way and are very tight.

BTW, are you going to tell us today what your profit per gallon is? And don't bother with the "we target 2 cents per gallon" line.

 

[aplusmnt]

Yeah, yeah, we all know. Bush has been president for six years. Gasoline prices have doubled here in that six years. Oil company profits are higher than some country's GNP, and it's all Bill Clinton's fault. :roll:

Side stepping the issues are we? Do you wish to deny that it was Clinton that allowed the mergers that produce them large numbers that seem to bug you?

I am going to type real slow so you can understand this. Because this is about as basic as it gets.

Gas after adjusting for inflation is cheaper now than in the 80's you just got spoiled with all the extremely cheap gas for the last 20 years.

And secondly the profit margins are smaller on oil companies than many other Corporations. So why pick on the oil companies?

Once you can gain an understanding of those two points then you will come to realize that $3.00 per gallon gas is not unfair.

Recognizing the problem is half of the battle. Once you understand those two points above you can let go of the anger and bitterness you have and start looking at life as half full instead of half empty.

You will feel so much better once you let go of them hopes that Washington D.C. will come in on a white horse and solve all your problems for you!

 

[Alice]

Aplusmnt, are you gonna type real slow and try to spell it out to all of those 22 republican and democrat governors that are calling for an investigation of gasoline price gouging. I know they'll really appreciate hearing from you and you setting them straight on it. :lol2:

Alice (the yeah yeah girl)