Thoughtson this bull?

[TB-Herefords]

Thats UPS Domino 3027 My thought a great bull

 

[CPL]

He looks good. His rear leg set concerns me, but I bet its just the picture. What are you using him on? I think there are better bulls out there, but he's still a good bull.

 

[iowahawkeyes]

Looks like a really beefy bull. He looks a little deep chested.

 

[KNERSIE]

Looks like a really beefy bull. He looks a little deep chested.

I thought that was his best trait.

 

[bigbull338]

he is a nice beefy bull thats for sure.

 

[K2011]

Once again, yes he is a beefy bull

 

[Avalon]

I do not care for the muscle shape back in the rear. It's not deep enough for me. Is he a high carcass merit bull?

 

[KNERSIE]

Just for the record, I am NOT a big fan of EPDs. In theory they sound nice, but I don't trust the people keeping the records. Just human nature you know.

Here are his EPDs per AHA:

CE +7.50
BW -2.5
WW +45
YW +72
Milk +34
M&G -56
MCE +.6
SC +1.0
Fat +.02
REA +.29
IMF +.18

The thing I was liking was his progeny records show 37 head at a yearling frame of 5.6

Whether you're a fan of EPDs or not, if his EPDs has any accuracy at all I'd say his milk is too extreme for a minimal input system.

He would be no more than a tool to increase milk on a low milking line that have other very desireable traits.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

I will say, that if the across breed comparison's are bogus, then maybe the milk would be too high. +34 Angus would be too high for here. +18 would be OK.

sooknortex-

You say you are not a "fan" of EPD's. In the example you just gave, that of +34 Angus Milk EPD being too high and +18 being OK, you indicate that the "across breed comparison's" are bogus. What is your justification for that assumption?? Can you present extenuating circumstances for your convictions? I agree that +34 is too high - but can you justify your assertions? Of course, you are not alone, and I say to ALL of you "disbelievers", for whatever collection of reasons, if you don't have faith or trust in the breeders who report their EPD results - what explanation do you present to those of us who DO function with the EPD results as to why there are millions of beef breeders who are inordinately successful in trait selections and balancing characteristics against merely "eye-balling" for LOOKS (Phenotype ONLY? Just pure, blind LUCK?? Are they successful IN SPITE of the lying, cheating, equivocating, and evading the truth of reporting their EPD's? Not EVERY breeder is a crook, or a liar, or a cheater. Do you not realize that over a period of time (and not too long a period of time at that) that the "truth will out" as it were, in the balancing of successive generations of reporting these results? Do you think that ALL of the extensive work that has been done by Breed Associations, Universities, Research Foundations and the millions and millions of dollars and millions and millions of hours expended are nothing more than lies? Nothing more than cheating? Nothing more than playing games with figures and picky, fussy, meticulous technicalities just to have something to print on a pedigree? If THAT is why you "...are not a fan of EPD's" - I think you need to re-evaluate your protocols and smell the coffee! Bowing your neck and digging in your heels is not the way to improve you selection technics - or elevate your bottom line at the bank!

Utilizing EPD's and Phenotype and Functional Traits as TOOLS, and in the manner they are intended to be used will benefit most open-minded producers, if they will use the information in a sensible and pragmatic way.

Some are not capable of doing that.

Just my opinion.

DOC HARRIS

 

[I luv herfrds]

Nice looking bull. I see so many good looking cattle on here, no matter the breed, that it is a great learning experience.

Doc you are right on EPD's. You have to use them even if you don't like them.
Reading what everybody has had to say about them I have taught myself how to read them. I'm not always accurate, but it is better then knowing nothing about them.

 

[Australian Cattleman]

One of the better Hereford bulls I've seen on these boards. I don't use Breedplan or EPDs. Have no need for them. My clients have never asked whether I use it or not. I don't knock anyone for using them,I just don't think they are required.

 

[novatech]

From Doc:

>>or elevate your bottom line at the bank!<<

That is EXACTLY how I evaluate MY operation. I use the tools that work best to MAXIMIZE my BOTTOM LINE!!!!

Always have and always will. Without sounding too egotistical, I'd say I have done a very good job at remaining profitable and I certainly plan on continuing that trend.

I appreciate your concern, though..... LOL!!!!!

My hat is off to you. But can you possibly imagine how much more you could make by doing things with a little more open mind. I really believe the time is coming, sooner than you think, that people will have to work more with the tools available in order to remain profitable. Feed conversion ratios, and efficiency of calf production just to name a couple items.

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

EPD's are only as good as the people reporting them. I don't think every breeder is a crook and a liar but i assure you folks they are out there.I no very few seed stock producers who run their operations like commerical cattlemen. To have confidence in EPDs you need to have some background on the cattle you are looking at.

 

[EAT BEEF]

If numbers were the answer every glossy sugar daddy sale book I get would be filled with great cattle.

I look at E.P.D's some and try to stay within a certain range, but for the most part it's just a marketing tool. There are better ways to breed cattle like not changeing direction every few years and takeing the time to watch what your cattle are doing.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

>>Feed conversion ratios, and efficiency of calf production just to name a couple items.<<

I am thinking of that right now, and have been for a while. I have traditionally run a black based commercial herd. I have introduced Hereford genetics based on their historical efficiency advantages. I am contemplating starting a small herd of pure Herefords along this line.

Our whole paradigm will be changing if $7-$8 corn is here to stay. I'll keep you posted.

Here is a link to my blog where I post other ideas and strategies for the changing world.

http://energyfarmandranch.blogspot.com/

My motto: Quit Crying and ADAPT!!!

In a nutshell, I think EPDs are the "old" paradigm. They will try to change. You will see breed associations rush to 'develope' feed efficiency epds. I think I am ahead of the curve in this respect.

Good Luck to us All!!!!

sooknortex-

Feed conversion and Feed efficiency are keys to a successful and profitable beef operation. There was a considerable discussion on that very subject a few weeks ago. I do agree with you regarding SOME of the EPD's being the "old" paradigm. However, I maintain that the basic Growth, Milk, Carcass, and Ultrasound genetics, combined with Phenotype and Functional Traits are the mating protocols of profitable Beef Cattle operations. AND, I will accede to the addition of Feed Conversion and Feed Efficiency EPD's to the current "Basic Fundamental" one's with high accuracies,and common sense - which is in short supply.

I have read your "linked" blog, and I am extremely impressed with your predictive perceptions. You are obviously as cynical and critical of our "givermint" as I have been for over 60 years.

Our current World Population is, and has been for many years, sailing blithly along, unware of the Satanic forces in the process of creating the inevitable "end times" which are iterated repeatedly in The Bible, - - particularly in The Book of Revelation.

In my opinion, your blog is closer to Revelation than the World is aware. In The Gospel According to Luke, Chapter 21: 5-38, and other Apostles' Gospels as well, Jesus Christ said (this is referred to as the "Apocalyptic Discourse")...verse 28..."When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near." In light of the almost unbelievable occurrences which are taking place all over the world - every day - I feel that the Return of Our Savior is imminent!

Considering these overwhelmingly significant Prophecies, our petty disputation regarding EPD's pales into insignificance! From your comments regarding your breeding management and protocols, I would say that you are probably "ahead of the curve" on Feed Efficiency EPD's. GeneStar (and others) have taken the first steps. Now we are waiting for Accuracies.

DOC HARRIS

 

[CPL]

I have introduced Hereford genetics based on their historical efficiency advantages.

Have these "hereford genetics" been tested for Feed Efficieny? Just using a generic Hereford because some in the breed are feed efficient is almost as stupid as using angus cattle because some in the breed marble well.

 

[EAT BEEF]

I have introduced Hereford genetics based on their historical efficiency advantages.

Have these "hereford genetics" been tested for Feed Efficieny? Just using a generic Hereford because some in the breed are feed efficient is almost as stupid as using angus cattle because some in the breed marble well.

O yes lets run more tests thats what we need

 

[KNERSIE]

I have introduced Hereford genetics based on their historical efficiency advantages.

Have these "hereford genetics" been tested for Feed Efficieny? Just using a generic Hereford because some in the breed are feed efficient is almost as stupid as using angus cattle because some in the breed marble well.

The most efficient converters in the feedlot (ie tested bulls) are very seldom those that excel under range conditions.

The problem with any breeding values is that it is a SIMPLISTIC indication of what to expect. Out in the real world where conditions are usually sub-optimum there are more factors playing a role than there can ever be used in the matrix to calculate the EPD.

The key to profitable low cost production is identifying those bulls who's offspring perform adequately under adverse conditions much more so than those performing outstandingly under optimum conditions.

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

Thats about the way it works Knersie. More seed stock needs to be produced under real range conditions

 

[novatech]

I have introduced Hereford genetics based on their historical efficiency advantages.

Have these "hereford genetics" been tested for Feed Efficieny? Just using a generic Hereford because some in the breed are feed efficient is almost as stupid as using angus cattle because some in the breed marble well.

The most efficient converters in the feedlot (ie tested bulls) are very seldom those that excel under range conditions.

The problem with any breeding values is that it is a SIMPLISTIC indication of what to expect. Out in the real world where conditions are usually sub-optimum there are more factors playing a role than there can ever be used in the matrix to calculate the EPD.

The key to profitable low cost production is identifying those bulls who's offspring perform adequately under adverse conditions much more so than those performing outstandingly under optimum conditions.

I understand what you are saying and agree with you. But also consider the cows roll in the program. Most seed stock producers pasture raise all their calves. During the process the hard keeper cows are culled along with the progeny. Secondly wouldn't the market take care of the bull that produced hard keepers?