The Clueless Award

[john250]

There was an environmental rally in Louisville, KY yesterday. Seems there was something for everyone to protest. Coal bore the brunt of the hate, especially the mining practice of "mountaintop removal". You can read all about it at the public radio website here: http://wfpl.org/post/faith-environmenta ... louisville
Go to the picture slideshow. The last picture, in the foreground listening to speeches are a group of folks on ELECTRIC SCOOTERS. (Hoverounds, Jazzys, you know). I guess they all have solar charging stations for those things. OY!

 

[Bigfoot]

I wonder what they were thinking when they named it "Mountain Top Removal". It just screams come protest me. "Top Soil Relocation" would garner less attention.

 

[john250]

I wonder what they were thinking when they named it "Mountain Top Removal". It just screams come protest me. "Top Soil Relocation" would garner less attention.

I've heard that many communities are happy to have the level ground that is left. I don't live there so I can't really say.

 

[Jogeephus]

Don't have a lot of experience with it either but I did work for a man who liked to purchase reclaimed coal mines like this and I will say they were beautiful with lots of good lakes, clean water and good fishing and hunting.

 

[inyati13]

I wonder what they were thinking when they named it "Mountain Top Removal". It just screams come protest me. "Top Soil Relocation" would garner less attention.

Believe me, Environmentalist get their own interest confused all the time. Mtn Top Removal is more environmentally friendly than contour mining, where the excavated material is replaced to approximate orginal contour. Any farmer knows how land slips and placing excavated material on a slope is asking for trouble. Big in MTR, the material is placed back on the unexcavated surface where the coal bed is removed. I worked as a Reclamation Specialist in Hazard, KY for a while. After that I was a Reclamation Supervisor fo Tesoro Coal Co. You Texas guys should have heard the name Tesoro, they are out of San Antonio. Went there often in the 70s.

Bigfoot, you are so right. But you could not call it top soil relocation because Top Soil has to be removed and stockpiled in all cases. And that is less than 1% of what constitutes overburden. Most of what is being removed is solid rock (sandstone, shale, etc). But they could have called it, Mountain Top Restoration. The word removal is bad juju.

See, I know just about everything. It is a heavy burden to carry.

I was born about 10,000 years ago,
and there is nothing in this world I do not know!

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

Take your evening meds Ron and call us back in the morning.

 

[inyati13]

Take your evening meds Ron and call us back in the morning.

I will my very good friend. Larry, I think you are going to have a full time job running point for me. :lol:

 

[kenny thomas]

Louisville, KY right in the center of the coal mining. No mining or even mountians for a couple hundred miles. Buit a wonderful place to have meetings and a huge party.
The coal mining in VA is about 40 miles east of me and I work much of the area that has or is being mined. The MTR is not the big issue that I see it is the allowable amount of sedimentation. Who really cares if when they finish if the mountain is 50 ft lower. The amount that runs down the river is what worries me.
Hazard, Ky, all the areas you reclaimed is covered with Elk now. Another issue that VA fought for a long time saying it would bring in disease. When they seen how much money KY was making on the applications for the lottery drawing for an Elk permit everything became ok and now VA is stocking them also.

 

[Dega Moo]

I wonder what they were thinking when they named it "Mountain Top Removal". It just screams come protest me. "Top Soil Relocation" would garner less attention.

........Mtn Top Removal is more environmentally friendly than contour mining, where the excavated material is replaced to approximate orginal contour. Any farmer knows how land slips and placing excavated material on a slope is asking for trouble. ........

I agree that most of those folks are clueless but I'm not sure how mountain top removal is friendlier to the environment than 'contour' mining - by which I assume you mean modern day surface mining and reclamation.

Surface mines are required to stockpile and vegetate topsoil and texture piles. Generally all mine/permit runoff must pass through sedimentation ponds and stay on permit. Mines or permits are inspected typically on a monthly basis and a primary concern is erosion control, loss of topsoil and texture and sedimentation. Typically land must be returned to it's original purpose. A percentage of the initial bond is returned when the land has been returned to the original contour; another percentage is returned when the depth of topsoil and texture are confirmed to meet pre-mine depths, vegetation established and erosion controlled; the final percentage of bond is returned when the land has proven it's productivity whether that is as agricultural crop land, herbaceous wildlife, or wooded herbaceous wildlife. If this is crop land as is typically the case in Illinois, the property must meet average expectations for crop yield(there are formulas) based on the soil type and capability. Better cropland requires increasingly stringent requirements. Bond money is returned no earlier than the fifth year after productivity starts and must be complete prior to the end of the tenth year.

Bond money is never returned while there is an erosion or productivity or water quality issue. The old mining model left moguls of rock and texture which made the property worthless to much other than hunting and fishing and some grazing. Today's reclaimed land does make great hunting and fishing property but it also makes pretty good cropland and pasture.

 

[inyati13]

I wonder what they were thinking when they named it "Mountain Top Removal". It just screams come protest me. "Top Soil Relocation" would garner less attention.

........Mtn Top Removal is more environmentally friendly than contour mining, where the excavated material is replaced to approximate orginal contour. Any farmer knows how land slips and placing excavated material on a slope is asking for trouble. ........

I agree that most of those folks are clueless but I'm not sure how mountain top removal is friendlier to the environment than 'contour' mining - by which I assume you mean modern day surface mining and reclamation.

Surface mines are required to stockpile and vegetate topsoil and texture piles. Generally all mine/permit runoff must pass through sedimentation ponds and stay on permit. Mines or permits are inspected typically on a monthly basis and a primary concern is erosion control, loss of topsoil and texture and sedimentation. Typically land must be returned to it's original purpose. A percentage of the initial bond is returned when the land has been returned to the original contour; another percentage is returned when the depth of topsoil and texture are confirmed to meet pre-mine depths, vegetation established and erosion controlled; the final percentage of bond is returned when the land has proven it's productivity whether that is as agricultural crop land, herbaceous wildlife, or wooded herbaceous wildlife. If this is crop land as is typically the case in Illinois, the property must meet average expectations for crop yield(there are formulas) based on the soil type and capability. Better cropland requires increasingly stringent requirements. Bond money is returned no earlier than the fifth year after productivity starts and must be complete prior to the end of the tenth year.

Bond money is never returned while there is an erosion or productivity or water quality issue. The old mining model left moguls of rock and texture which made the property worthless to much other than hunting and fishing and some grazing. Today's reclaimed land does make great hunting and fishing property but it also makes pretty good cropland and pasture.

No, what I mean by contour mining is a method of strip mining along the coal seam contour around the mountain. Instead of taking all the overburen, i.e., MTR, you only go back to about a 12 to 1 ratio of overburden to coal. If the seam is 3 foot thick, then you can you can take 30 foot of overburden and still make money. Contour mining and MTR are still modern day mining methods.

Yes, Surface Mining Reclamation and Control Act of I believe 1977 (Carter signed it) requres removal and stockpiling of all growth media (topsoil). Run-off must be passed through approved sedimentation structures as designed and approved by the mining permit. After three years with Tesoro Coal Company, I was a Reclamation Specialist with the US Dept of Interior, Office of Surface Mining.

MTR is a sound method of mining coal. It is just as enviromentally protective as any other approved mining method. In my opinion, it is just a battle cry. What they are really opposed to is coal mining. Which is fine, except for the fact that they don't say that. I suppose there are those among them that just want to see the mountain as nature sculptured it. But there has been a train coming down the track in this country for the last 100 years. People want to force their valves on the guy next to them. As bat shyt cazy as I am, I try not judging others by my valves with the presumption they should be like me. I will tell you if you are wrong, I will disagree with you, I will ignore you, etc. but I will not righteously espouse my view of the world as if you should be like me. I think when this country began, people were so tired of being oppressed where they came from that you got the crap knocked out of you if you crossed that line. In some places you probably had a few new orifices put in. Now forcing one's view on everyone is seen as progressive.

 

[kickinbull]

[
MTR is a sound method of mining coal. It is just as enviromentally protective as any other approved mining method. In my opinion, it is just a battle cry. What they are really opposed to is coal mining. Which is fine, except for the fact that they don't say that. I suppose there are those among them that just want to see the mountain as nature sculptured it. But there has been a train coming down the track in this country for the last 100 years. People want to force their valves on the guy next to them. As bat shyt cazy as I am, I try not judging others by my valves with the presumption they should be like me. I will tell you if you are wrong, I will disagree with you, I will ignore you, etc. but I will not righteously espouse my view of the world as if you should be like me. I think when this country began, people were so tired of being oppressed where they came from that you got the crap knocked out of you if you crossed that line. In some places you probably had a few new orifices put in. Now forcing one's view on everyone is seen as progressive.[/quote]
Well, said. Thanks for sharing.