Menu
Forums
New posts
Search forums
What's new
New posts
New media
New media comments
New profile posts
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Members
Current visitors
New profile posts
Search profile posts
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles and first posts only
Search titles only
By:
New posts
Search forums
Menu
Log in
Register
Forums
Cattle Boards
Breeds Board
The Challenge
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Help Support CattleToday:
Message
<blockquote data-quote="DOC HARRIS" data-source="post: 829568" data-attributes="member: 1683"><p>The title of Dylan's thread, "The Challenge", carries the entire thrust of what the undertaking or function of breeding "Profitable" beef cattle is all about. In assessing my comments here , they take into account that Dylan's original concept concerned "...the process of building up a <em>registered</em> OR <em>commercial </em> Maternal breed. I have attempted to stay within those parameters.</p><p></p><p>Beef cattle "production" is, of necessity, a two-pronged occupation. I have mentioned on these pages in the past that, in my opinion, the BU$INE$$ of producing profitable beef cattle is as difficult an endeavor in which <u>one</u> agricultural operator can pursue as exists in the world! In order to be successful AND profitable, a person must be more adept at more tasks, missions, specialties, duties, <em>functions</em>, and be more of an expert at more detailed factors than almost any other occupation. I have nothing but high regard for an individual who is a successful beef cattle producer! He must be expert at Chemistry (feeding formulas, soil management and fertilization), he must understand his animal partners, labor long hours in all types and kinds of weather and adverse circumstances, be an excellent bookkeeper and mathematician, an accomplished mechanic and carpenter, a human AND animal psychologist, a Veterinarian of some expertise, a soil conservationist, an Attorney of sorts, and have the patience of Job! All of the above are required while at the same time managing his own private family matters, and probably helping his wife in the raising of kids. A seemingly impossible laborious struggle! . . .and . . . he has to be able to <strong>fix fence!</strong></p><p></p><p>However - the above listed defiant occupational and <em>functional</em> duties and responsibilities which beef producers epitomize are the very characteristics which "make" a beef cattle producer the spectacular and legendary individual that most of them demonstrate.</p><p></p><p>In order to prepare oneself for these arduous work assignments, the breeder must have and use a tremenmdous number of "tools" at his disposal, aside from those previously mentioned above...and, hereby, we arrive at the quandry of this subject matter, and that becomes - the "tools" required to arrive at a solution to "The Challenge"!</p><p></p><p>The tools required to confront "The Challenge" are almost as demanding and specific as the subject itself. A necessary approach to a resolution requires addressing the subject in its entirety. There are three distinct facets of 'Beef Production ' to be considered here: 1- The Maternal Herd 2- The Terminal Herd 3- The Show Herd. </p><p></p><p>Number Three, the Show Herd, is a specialty phase of the beef business that is a totally different tangent from our discussion here regardless of the fact that "Multiple Trait Selection" factors are critical in making breeding choices, but for our purpose relevant, the <strong>balance</strong> of those factors present a different strategy, therefore the 'Show Herd' management will exceed the theme of this discussion point.</p><p></p><p>We are now at the junction of the selection of seedstock for either a 'maternal herd' or a 'terminal herd'. Inasmuch as Dylan's "Challenge" charge specified "...maternal herd selection emphasis,". . this discussion will focus on that approach. It should be stated here, however, that a true <strong><em>balance</em></strong> of breed selection choices are compatible and congruent with <strong>BOTH</strong> maternal and terminal breeding seedstock. That is a given fact! It is vital that, to prevent any misunderstanding of terms used herein, that Dylan also stipulated ". . . functional selection emphasis". ., which dictates an in-depth explanation of "functional traits". The term 'Functional' can carry a broad and general significance, and can be defined for our purposes here as "...the operation or performance of an activity of a part of the body, or organism, or system in a reasonably expected manner."</p><p></p><p>"Functional Traits can be referred to as physical, or type traits, that cannot be described with EPD's. They may affect the animal's function or longevity in the herd - such as skeletal structure (sound feet and legs, stifles, pasterns shoulders, spine, hock angles, etc) mammary structure and attachments, small teats, disposition, femininity (or masculinity) body capacity, fleshing ability, - all of these are critical in one's selection choices - and the Accuracies and Variances of these traits should also be given adequate consideration. </p><p></p><p>We can get so involved with degrees and details of traits, that the original focus is completely lost in the details. Suffice it to say, as Dylan commented, to find all of the so-called "necessary" factors and traits in one package is almost an impossibility! I concur completely!</p><p></p><p>Many sale catalogs of Registered Cattle display <strong>many</strong> Genetic and Phenotypic inherited traits EPD's - many of which are <em>far</em> in excess of those that the general prevailing seedstock provider would consider obligatory for his general requirements. Convenient to know, optional to review, interesting to have available - but not absolutely necessary for the decision-making protocols in most seedstock selection choices. "More is Not Necessarily Better" is a phrase that fits here very well.</p><p></p><p>Dylan, I agree with your concepts almost to the letter. The Angus breed as a general rule has gotten too large for economical <strong>functioning</strong> with PROFIT as a primary concern in the overall mix. I do question the tendency for you to reduce the birth weight averages and increase the Milk production EPD's - or increasing "Femininity" exponentially! These correlated changes <em>have</em> resulted in breed-wide cows that lack muscle and capacity, reduced 'beefiness', loss of thickness and what I call "Funnel Butts"! These traits are highly heritable, and may result in the undesirable changes mentioned here very quickly, in just two or three generations, - sometimes in just ONE generation. These are the primary reasons that I am so adament about breeders blindly lurching into following just ONE trait that they wish to correct without understanding that they may be throwing out the baby with the bath water , or - destroying one desirable trait by lurching crazily after another - without thinking what they are doing! Genetic and Phenotypical changes, including "Functional" traits must be made gradually, and with great <strong>BALANCE</strong> concepts to prevent a crash that could result in many years to correct the mistakes. "Make Haste Slowly" is a truism in beef breeding as it is in making love! Great results occur in both cases.</p><p></p><p>Insofar as compromise is concerned, I would enter into that activity with great caution and trepidation for the reasons listed above. The code words for breeding successes are <strong>BALANCE - BALANCE - BALANCE! </strong> You can't make a Silk Purse out of a Sow's ear! You have to know your sows as well as your cows. Knowledge is crucial when it comes to Balancing Traits between Cows and Bulls.</p><p></p><p>I have lived with this motto for 69 years of working with beef cattle: A <strong><em>good</em></strong> bull is half your herd. A <strong><em>poor</em></strong> bull is your <strong>ENTIRE</strong> herd!</p><p></p><p>Sorry for the long post. I sort of got carried away.</p><p></p><p>DOC HARRIS</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="DOC HARRIS, post: 829568, member: 1683"] The title of Dylan's thread, "The Challenge", carries the entire thrust of what the undertaking or function of breeding "Profitable" beef cattle is all about. In assessing my comments here , they take into account that Dylan's original concept concerned "...the process of building up a [i]registered[/i] OR [i]commercial [/i] Maternal breed. I have attempted to stay within those parameters. Beef cattle "production" is, of necessity, a two-pronged occupation. I have mentioned on these pages in the past that, in my opinion, the BU$INE$$ of producing profitable beef cattle is as difficult an endeavor in which [u]one[/u] agricultural operator can pursue as exists in the world! In order to be successful AND profitable, a person must be more adept at more tasks, missions, specialties, duties, [i]functions[/i], and be more of an expert at more detailed factors than almost any other occupation. I have nothing but high regard for an individual who is a successful beef cattle producer! He must be expert at Chemistry (feeding formulas, soil management and fertilization), he must understand his animal partners, labor long hours in all types and kinds of weather and adverse circumstances, be an excellent bookkeeper and mathematician, an accomplished mechanic and carpenter, a human AND animal psychologist, a Veterinarian of some expertise, a soil conservationist, an Attorney of sorts, and have the patience of Job! All of the above are required while at the same time managing his own private family matters, and probably helping his wife in the raising of kids. A seemingly impossible laborious struggle! . . .and . . . he has to be able to [b]fix fence![/b] However - the above listed defiant occupational and [i]functional[/i] duties and responsibilities which beef producers epitomize are the very characteristics which "make" a beef cattle producer the spectacular and legendary individual that most of them demonstrate. In order to prepare oneself for these arduous work assignments, the breeder must have and use a tremenmdous number of "tools" at his disposal, aside from those previously mentioned above...and, hereby, we arrive at the quandry of this subject matter, and that becomes - the "tools" required to arrive at a solution to "The Challenge"! The tools required to confront "The Challenge" are almost as demanding and specific as the subject itself. A necessary approach to a resolution requires addressing the subject in its entirety. There are three distinct facets of 'Beef Production ' to be considered here: 1- The Maternal Herd 2- The Terminal Herd 3- The Show Herd. Number Three, the Show Herd, is a specialty phase of the beef business that is a totally different tangent from our discussion here regardless of the fact that "Multiple Trait Selection" factors are critical in making breeding choices, but for our purpose relevant, the [b]balance[/b] of those factors present a different strategy, therefore the 'Show Herd' management will exceed the theme of this discussion point. We are now at the junction of the selection of seedstock for either a 'maternal herd' or a 'terminal herd'. Inasmuch as Dylan's "Challenge" charge specified "...maternal herd selection emphasis,". . this discussion will focus on that approach. It should be stated here, however, that a true [b][i]balance[/i][/b] of breed selection choices are compatible and congruent with [b]BOTH[/b] maternal and terminal breeding seedstock. That is a given fact! It is vital that, to prevent any misunderstanding of terms used herein, that Dylan also stipulated ". . . functional selection emphasis". ., which dictates an in-depth explanation of "functional traits". The term 'Functional' can carry a broad and general significance, and can be defined for our purposes here as "...the operation or performance of an activity of a part of the body, or organism, or system in a reasonably expected manner." "Functional Traits can be referred to as physical, or type traits, that cannot be described with EPD's. They may affect the animal's function or longevity in the herd - such as skeletal structure (sound feet and legs, stifles, pasterns shoulders, spine, hock angles, etc) mammary structure and attachments, small teats, disposition, femininity (or masculinity) body capacity, fleshing ability, - all of these are critical in one's selection choices - and the Accuracies and Variances of these traits should also be given adequate consideration. We can get so involved with degrees and details of traits, that the original focus is completely lost in the details. Suffice it to say, as Dylan commented, to find all of the so-called "necessary" factors and traits in one package is almost an impossibility! I concur completely! Many sale catalogs of Registered Cattle display [b]many[/b] Genetic and Phenotypic inherited traits EPD's - many of which are [i]far[/i] in excess of those that the general prevailing seedstock provider would consider obligatory for his general requirements. Convenient to know, optional to review, interesting to have available - but not absolutely necessary for the decision-making protocols in most seedstock selection choices. "More is Not Necessarily Better" is a phrase that fits here very well. Dylan, I agree with your concepts almost to the letter. The Angus breed as a general rule has gotten too large for economical [b]functioning[/b] with PROFIT as a primary concern in the overall mix. I do question the tendency for you to reduce the birth weight averages and increase the Milk production EPD's - or increasing "Femininity" exponentially! These correlated changes [i]have[/i] resulted in breed-wide cows that lack muscle and capacity, reduced 'beefiness', loss of thickness and what I call "Funnel Butts"! These traits are highly heritable, and may result in the undesirable changes mentioned here very quickly, in just two or three generations, - sometimes in just ONE generation. These are the primary reasons that I am so adament about breeders blindly lurching into following just ONE trait that they wish to correct without understanding that they may be throwing out the baby with the bath water , or - destroying one desirable trait by lurching crazily after another - without thinking what they are doing! Genetic and Phenotypical changes, including "Functional" traits must be made gradually, and with great [b]BALANCE[/b] concepts to prevent a crash that could result in many years to correct the mistakes. "Make Haste Slowly" is a truism in beef breeding as it is in making love! Great results occur in both cases. Insofar as compromise is concerned, I would enter into that activity with great caution and trepidation for the reasons listed above. The code words for breeding successes are [b]BALANCE - BALANCE - BALANCE! [/b] You can't make a Silk Purse out of a Sow's ear! You have to know your sows as well as your cows. Knowledge is crucial when it comes to Balancing Traits between Cows and Bulls. I have lived with this motto for 69 years of working with beef cattle: A [b][i]good[/i][/b] bull is half your herd. A [b][i]poor[/i][/b] bull is your [b]ENTIRE[/b] herd! Sorry for the long post. I sort of got carried away. DOC HARRIS [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Forums
Cattle Boards
Breeds Board
The Challenge
Top