Stress question

[DaveM]

I bought two horned bull calves last weekend. They are supposed to be between five and six months old. I was told they had been separated from their mothers for two weeks. I took a look at the momma's and they were in poor condition. Full blooded Herefords that were a bag of bones. The calves body conditions are less than perfect, a bit on the bony side. However, they are full of energy and spunk and appear to be healthy, just a bit under weight. I want to dehorn and castrate them, grow them out and put them in the freezer. I wish they would have lost their horns and been castrated prior to weaning but it didn't happen that way. I did a fair bit of searching on this forum about best way to dehorn and after reading the older posts I concluded that there really isn't a"best" way. Different methods have their own pros and cons. These calves horns are about two inches long. Unless someone can convince me otherwise I plan to put bands on the horns to remove them.

My question is this. Would it stress them less to band horns and band testicles at the same time or would they do better to have one procedure done first then the second procedure a couple weeks later? Their horns are not a safety issue right at the moment so It is not all that important to me to have them dehorned immediately.....I just want to do what's best for the calves as far as creating the least amount of stress. I'll probably put a few pounds on them before I do anything. Both are eating a little grain and their fair share of hay. Their body condition has seemed to improve in just one week.

One other factor to consider. I'm in Northern Pa. Nothing extreme but it does get pretty cold here this time of year. Better to do it now in the cold weather with no flies (knowing they need extra energy from their feed to keep them warm this time of year) or wait until spring?

Didn't mean to ramble on so much....what's best for the calves? Thanks

 

[Bigfoot]

You'll get answers that are all over the board. I band all bull calves, I used to cut, and my back ain't the best. It's just easier for me to band, so I do. Recently I've started banding horns. My Barnes dehorners will be rusted shut, because I will never use them again.

 

[fenceman]

If I wasn't planning to sell them. I wouldn't worry about the horns. :2cents:

 

[JMJ Farms]

If I wasn't planning to sell them. I wouldn't worry about the horns. :2cents:

I would do both procedures at the same time. Band with an XL Bander. Give a shot of tetanus toxoid. I agree with fenceman about the horns. But if you still want to dehorn why not just "tip" them with a sawzall?

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

If I wasn't planning to sell them. I wouldn't worry about the horns. :2cents:

+1

 

[Supa Dexta]

Yeah by the time they're fit to kill, the horns will only be 6 or 8 inches long likely, not a big concern. Get the nuts off, and pile the feed to em.

 

[DaveM]

Thanks for the replies. I'm not trying to be argumentative but, My mind is made up that I'm going to dehorn and castrate them. My dogs and family interact with my cattle a couple of times a day and horns aren't going to be part of the mix. I was really trying to figure out if it will cause less stress to the cattle to perform both procedures at the same time or castrate now and dehorn later.

 

[bball]

If I wasn't planning to sell them. I wouldn't worry about the horns. :2cents:

I would do both procedures at the same time. Band with an XL Bander. Give a shot of tetanus toxoid. I agree with fenceman about the horns. But if you still want to dehorn why not just "tip" them with a sawzall?

Tetanus toxoid 2 weeks before...tetanus antitoxin time of banding if toxoid not done before procedure. I was under the impression toxoid takes a couple weeks to build up immunity while antitoxin works immediately but only lasts 10-14 days coverage.?.?

 

[JMJ Farms]

If I wasn't planning to sell them. I wouldn't worry about the horns. :2cents:

I would do both procedures at the same time. Band with an XL Bander. Give a shot of tetanus toxoid. I agree with fenceman about the horns. But if you still want to dehorn why not just "tip" them with a sawzall?

Tetanus toxoid 2 weeks before...tetanus antitoxin time of banding if toxoid not done before procedure. I was under the impression toxoid takes a couple weeks to build up immunity while antitoxin works immediately but only lasts 10-14 days coverage.?.?

I think that's correct. Vet told me that tetanus wasn't an "immediate" threat but a "delayed" threat. Therefore the toxoid gives you protection when you "need" it. Always worked for me. But this may be inaccurate. Someone on here will know for sure.

 

[JMJ Farms]

Q: Should I use Tetanus Toxoid or Antitoxin?

The answer is Tetanus Toxoid. Tetanus toxoid stimulates the immune system to produce antibodies to tetanus and gives residual protection for a period after banding, specifically around the time when infection is a threat. Antitoxin is a concentrated form of this protection and goes to work immediately and is primarily used immediately after suspected exposure. Antitoxin does not provide the long-term protection needed when banding cattle.

 

[bball]

Q: Should I use Tetanus Toxoid or Antitoxin?

The answer is Tetanus Toxoid. Tetanus toxoid stimulates the immune system to produce antibodies to tetanus and gives residual protection for a period after banding, specifically around the time when infection is a threat. Antitoxin is a concentrated form of this protection and goes to work immediately and is primarily used immediately after suspected exposure. Antitoxin does not provide the long-term protection needed when banding cattle.

Thanks JMJ.. I read some more for clarification, and in order to be effective, shouldn't band until after the booster (2nd dose) is given. First does sensitizes immune system, 2nd dose prompts antibodies. I think this is why I have heard of folks giving antitoxin at time of banding because they didn't do the prep work ahead of time. The tetanus causing toxins can be present within 2 days of banding (anaerobic environment).

Having said all this, I am a hypocrite, as I have banded many, many calfs without proper administration of toxoid or antitoxin.
Thanks again for the info.

 

[JMJ Farms]

Me too. Only ones I've ever give a tetanus shot too were the bigger ones. Now I band at birth and don't give anything. I do make sure the band is clean. Not sure if it helps but it can't hurt. And I spray the navel and band with triodyne7.

 

[DaveM]

Thanks for the advice. I'll give the tetanus toxoid a couple weeks before banding and the booster at time of banding. Can the tetanus toxoid be bought on line without a prescription? It is not something my Tractor Supply Store carries.

 

[JMJ Farms]

Not sure. Mine came from the vet. Check jeffers.com If they don't have it then it's probably prescription.

 

[M-5]

Just get you a pair of the scoop dehorners and do it while they are in head catch . easy and simple.

 

[Anonymous]

You said they were in kinda rough shape as were their mothers. Prob not vaccinated then. Might want to hit them with a blackleg 8 way with tetanus in it and booster the tetanus at banding. Just a thought. Kill two birds with one stone?

 

[M.Magis]

Thanks for the advice. I'll give the tetanus toxoid a couple weeks before banding and the booster at time of banding. Can the tetanus toxoid be bought on line without a prescription? It is not something my Tractor Supply Store carries.

TSC does carry it, at least they do here. It’s in the fridge. If not, your local co-op should have it. They might have single doses, and if so that may be the better way to go. For only two calves it’s going to be cheaper. According to the label, you’re supposed to use it all or pitch the remainder once you puncture the seal. If they don’t have the single doses, you’ll have to buy two $20 bottles, one for the initial shot and one for the booster.

 

[Lucky_P]

What BillMalek said - give a 8or9-way Clostridial with tetanus toxoid, a couple of weeks prior to banding, then booster at the time of band application.
I've seen some real wrecks when bulls were banded and given a tetanus toxoid - it can be a 'race' to see if the calf develops sufficient active immunity prior to toxin production by the tetanus organism... and sometimes the 'bug' wins. Saw one producer who lost 15-20 7-8cwt steers...OUCH!

Agree that if you're gonna be eating them, I wouldn't worry too much about the horns, but if you must take 'em off... bands have worked for me - and I'd band nuts and horns all at once.

 

[JMJ Farms]

What BillMalek said - give a 8or9-way Clostridial with tetanus toxoid, a couple of weeks prior to banding, then booster at the time of band application.
I've seen some real wrecks when bulls were banded and given a tetanus toxoid - it can be a 'race' to see if the calf develops sufficient active immunity prior to toxin production by the tetanus organism... and sometimes the 'bug' wins. Saw one producer who lost 15-20 7-8cwt steers...OUCH!

Agree that if you're gonna be eating them, I wouldn't worry too much about the horns, but if you must take 'em off... bands have worked for me - and I'd band nuts and horns all at once.

Reckon what caused that many to develop tetanus at the same time?

 

[Lucky_P]

"Reckon what caused that many to develop tetanus at the same time?"
That's easy...
Having a band applied to the base of their sizeable scrotums, without adequate protection against tetanus.
All were banded on the same day. Started showing clinical signs about 10 days out from banding.
I don't recall, now, how many out of this group were not affected, but still... 15-20 big steers... there went some $$$.

I would not even consider banding horns or nuts without - at minimum - giving a dose of tetanus antitoxin... but preferrably, pre-vaccinating with a bacterin/toxoid containing tetanus toxoid, 2-3 weeks prior, then boostering at the time of band application.