Starting a Herd...

[allenfarms]

I want to start a registered herd. It will me small to start unless I decide at a later time to buy/lease more land. I think the place will run 25-40 cows year round.

I want something that is going to be a big deal or really on an upward curve like Balancers or Black Gelbvieh. The only breed I am not going to consider at this time, is Angus. I live in North Arkansas btw.

I would like ya'lls thoughts on breeds and if there are any other small registered herd owners.

Thanks

 

[Caustic Burno]

All I say is you are trying to play with the big boys in a small operation. The average person entering into the seedstock side goes belly up in seven years. This is a money and reputation game that is hard to break into.

Good Luck

 

[cypressfarms]

I gotta agree with Caustic. Seedstock producers are a whole different field than cow calfers, that's for sure. I would think a person just starting out as a cow calfer would stand a much better chance of survival.

Seems like forever ago, but I remember as a kid looking at my dad's cattle magazines and dreaming of the day I had a red brangus operation. I just liked the way they looked. I laugh when I think about it now. Nothing wrong with dreaming, but as you get older you're faced with the reality of things.

 

[dieselbeef]

wow in a few seconds of reading this i thought of the huge upstart costs on this and almost hurt myself....animals alone the rest a given...beyond me

 

[allenfarms]

Would you feel the same if I told you I would pay cash for everything, including the cattle?


Btw, how many head in your opinion does this type operation require to make money.

 

[backhoeboogie]

Registered animals with papers go through the sale barn from time to time and most bring less than better looking commercial cattle.

If you have family in the registered business with a really good name, you MIGHT have a chance of getting started. If not, you may be laying out a lot of that cash you've got on advertisement.

The advice people gave above if from people who are actually trying to tell you how it is. They are trying to let you see the light. Take that advice or leave it.

Most of us are trying to make a few nickels.

 

[allenfarms]

Well backhoe obviously I plan on making money as well, all I am saying is that in many business's wether you make it or not can strongly be attributed to wether your business has to pay interest or not. By paying cash the farm will have a better shot at making money. Registered herds all started somewhere, now whether or not I wanna jump into that game? - not quite decided. I would really like to, however I want this to make money.

If you don't mind me asking, Would you be more supportive of me buying commercial cattle? or would you still tell me small herds don't make money. Also what makes a registered herd so much more expensive than a commercial?

And thanks for all your input I am simply asking for other opinions than my own.

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

Breed assocation memberships. Registering your calves. Stud certificates when your breed of choice requires them to register AI calves. The cost of the good quailty cattle to get started.The advertising costs. Memberships to state and other assocations so you can put your cattle in to the registered sales. And the years it takes to convince people you are producing a quilty product.

 

[Caustic Burno]

Well backhoe obviously I plan on making money as well, all I am saying is that in many business's wether you make it or not can strongly be attributed to wether your business has to pay interest or not. By paying cash the farm will have a better shot at making money. Registered herds all started somewhere, now whether or not I wanna jump into that game? - not quite decided. I would really like to, however I want this to make money.

If you don't mind me asking, Would you be more supportive of me buying commercial cattle? or would you still tell me small herds don't make money. Also what makes a registered herd so much more expensive than a commercial?

And thanks for all your input I am simply asking for other opinions than my own.

Good about registered cattle. Bull sales, Heifer sales, and show calves but this can only be the best of the best.
Bad the rest of your crop ends up at the salebarn competeing with commerical calves which will have more pounds and better growth for commerical buyers.

It is going to be hard to establish a reputation that buyers will want to spend there money on to gamble on you.
If I buy a bad cow from you it hurts a bad bull is a disaster for me and you starting out.

This is just science a straight bred calf is going to weigh 10% less than a crossbred and 20% less than a three way cross thats a heck of a hit to take on your calf crop at the salebarn as we are all selling by the pound across the scales.
These are the calves that are going to keep you afloat until you establish a reputation if you can.
You are going to have all the cost as others have mentioned with a lower cash inflow off your salebarn calves.

There is money to be made in the Seedstock business it is not going to happen overnight, here in lies the problem can you survive the process until you build a reputation.
I figure the cost to upkeep a commerical cow is a 1.25 a day it is going to be higher on registered due to fees advertising etc. that is 456 dollars just to keep her standing in the pasture.

I am not trying to discourage you just some things to think about.

To anwser you question on small herds commerical through the years I have figured for five cows it takes two calves to support them. Now this is assuming you have a 100% calf crop and you are not.
If you are a Jack of all trades and tighter than a crabs butt which is waterproof you can make money.
Anyone can make money when cattle are high the problem is this a commodity and cycles the trick to staying afloat is the bad years.

 

[backhoeboogie]

Well backhoe obviously I plan on making money as well, all I am saying is that in many business's wether you make it or not can strongly be attributed to wether your business has to pay interest or not. By paying cash the farm will have a better shot at making money. Registered herds all started somewhere, now whether or not I wanna jump into that game? - not quite decided. I would really like to, however I want this to make money.

I'd like for all of us to make money.

You are absolutely correct on the cash part of it. You understand that. Remember, there are other folks who have cash out there. You will be competing with some who can afford to take a loss, in the short term. It is all your choice.

There are people who pay mega-bucks for an animal just to get their name out there.

I read about failures all the time. Some of the folks who fail have been in the cattle business all their lives and they thought they had a good plan.

Some one will make money. Maybe it will be you. But I think your odds would be better in Vegas if you are going to choose the route you proposed.

 

[backhoeboogie]

This all probably sounds discouraging. Don't let it be. Just think about it all long and hard before you jump.

Money doesn't just disappear. It is still around. The economy is bad right now but investor confidence is terrible. Consumer confidence aint good. We're playing with consumers buying steak and burger. As such, we are catering to the little people with a commodity - food.

 

[Caustic Burno]

On the commerical herd I would buy Hereford type cattle. You have a lot of options with these girls.
Put a Black bull on them and get black baldies they always ring the bell at the barn.
A good Char bull and you have high yellows that always sell good
A Red Brangus and wow super red baldies man do these calves put on the pounds.
You can change your entire calf crop by just changing the bull to the market.

 

[SRBeef]

On the commerical herd I would buy Hereford type cattle. You have a lot of options with these girls.
Put a Black bull on them and get black baldies they always ring the bell at the barn.
A good Char bull and you have high yellows that always sell good
A Red Brangus and wow super red baldies man do these calves put on the pounds.
You can change your entire calf crop by just changing the bull to the market.

I would strongly agree with Caustic on this - start with COMMERCIAL Hereford cows to get started and my preference is a registered Hereford bull.

But the whole system has to be based on who your customers are, what do they want to buy and how much are they willing to pay. You MUST establish those basic points. Write them down. Be conservative.

I have a registered bull and commercial Hereford cows with a few Herf/Simm and BWF mixed in. This is a good way to start in my opinion for my market.

I had a weak moment this past week and wandering through a livestock show barn, I bought a registered Hereford heifer that looks the way I want my cows to look and has complementary EPD's to my bull. My first experiment with registered stock.

But the market for commercial cattle is one I know and will always be there. Keep costs down and they can make money. Diving headfirst into a large scale registered operation, with the increased costs involved over commercial, to me is a very risky business. Whether you can pay cash or not, you sure don't want to lose it. And you likely will as described above.

I would ease into things rather than diving into things. As Caustic mentions, Hereford cows are a versatile way to ease into things. They have other advantages for a startup, disposition, calving ease, etc. Maybe they aren't black and don't break the scale but you will probably make a bit of money if you are careful and have a good time doing it. jmho.

Good luck,

Jim

 

[Aaron]

Go commercial. If you think your going to start up a purebred herd, gain a reputation and sell high priced breeding stock in 5 year time, you will either lose it all or you own a bank.

Since I started purebred, with one purebred heifer calf, it took me 11 years until I started selling purebred stock that I felt I could stand behind no matter what. It's been another 8 years since then, so 19 years since I started the purebred game. Start with commercial and a very small (maybe couple heifers) purebred. Use the commercial herd like a genetic experiment and find out what works for you and then take that knowledge and apply it to your purebred seedstock. I spent the first 7 years breeding for big-framey cattle. That didn't work. By the time I was into my 10th year, I knew what worked and what didn't and what I had to do to get to the point I am at now.

I was told before when I was a small kid that purebred takes at least 10, if not 15 years to get established and make a solid reputation for yourself. I found it to be very true. You have to enjoy and, be prepared for, the journey, or you will end up leaving the biz after 5-10 years like many small purebred guys do. :cowboy:

 

[angie1]

It's been another 8 years since then, so 19 years since I started the purebred game.

You are 24 ~ yes?

 

[hillsdown]

If you are thinking of GV's contact the AGV association they are a great bunch and will send you tons of info, plus will answer all of your questions.

It can be done if you know cattle and make some smart choices.

BTW welcome to the boards and good luck with your endeavors. :wave:

 

[Aaron]

It's been another 8 years since then, so 19 years since I started the purebred game.

You are 24 ~ yes?

Yes. I started when I was 6, so it's not quite 19 years yet. :cowboy:

 

[allenfarms]

I appriciate all the help guys, I recon I will just stick with the commercial side for now while keeping my goals. I may actually just buy some pairs this spring, and sell'em come fall. Then in the mean time I will just be looking studying about which route to go. I really am leaning on gv's. I may get a reg. bull or something and toy with that just kinda like what ya'll are saying, just start slow experiment a little all the while running commercials.

 

[alftn]

Do not let people on this board , have to much influnce in your decision, start with a five year plan and run with it ....

If you got the resources, and Time, raise the Reg. stock (play the reg. game) ...

If not The F-1 game might be good for you...but what every do , make a plan and run with it...LIFE IS SHORT, AND FAILURE IS NOT A OPTION....

 

[Double R Ranch]

Theres another way to look at it and its how we are doing it. We have been commercial for a long time. Here and there we have bought older registered angus but haven't had much luck with the "older" genetics.
We have a very fertile, well producing set of cows in our operation. I have culled hard. We ONLY AI and so if they don't breed by the second time and there isn't a really good reason they are gone. They have to be easy keepers and raise good calves while breeding back.
We just purchased a heifer from a registered special sale where all the breeders in our state take there best.
Now threw AI and ET we are getting ready to flush this heifer several times bred to different top sires and freeze the flushes. Come breeding season I will implant these embryo's in my commercial cows. They will have registerable calves and I can pick and choose who I register, keep and sell. Now my commercial cattle have a new job and thats calving me registered cattle that I wouldn't be able to afford in my wildest dreams. I am also talking to local very big and well know breeders and they are looking at selling me some of there embryo's. There are people out there who want to help you succeed.
Hope this makes sense. Been a long weekend.
Best of luck to you.
Double R