Something to Think About

[randiliana]

Here is a record on one of our older cows. She was born in 1997, we bought her as a bred heifer in the fall of 1998. Just for curiosity's sake, she is a Black Baldy (Hereford x Angus).

Date.......Desc.. Sex. BW.. H/P..Assist..Sire...Weighed...WW......ADG

Mar 22/99..Black...F...65.... P......U....BA.....Oct 28/99....511 lbs...2.01 lb/day....Sold
Mar 27/00..Rwf....F... 73.... P..... U....HH....Oct 12/00....501 lbs...2.15 lb/day.....Sold
Mar 28/01..Rwf....M...83.....H......U...125G...Oct 11/01....593 lbs...2.60 lb/day.....Sold
Mar 10/02...Bwf...F...89......H .... U... 49H....Oct 11/02....550 lbs...2.16 lb/day.....Kept
Mar 3/03....Bwf...M ...94......P.....U.....3K....Oct 16/03....661 lbs...2.49 lb/day.....Sold
Mar 23/04...Bbrf...M...87......P.....U....48M....Sept 21/04...616 lbs...2.91 lb/day.....Kept
Apr 3/05.....Rwf... F...80.....H.....U....019K....Sept 27/05...521 lbs...2.51 lb/day.....Sold
Mar 21/06...Bwf....M...91.....H.....U....120N....Sept 26/06...541 lbs...2.38 lb/day.....Sold
Mar 26/07...Bbrf....F....96....P.....U.....11N.....Sept 22/07...605 lbs...2.83 lb/day.....Kept

Looking at this record, what would you say may have caused her lapse in 2002??? I know what the problem was, just wondering if anyone else can come up with it.

 

[Jim62]

She had a lapse in 2002 ? :???:

 

[randiliana]

Take a look at her ADG. I wasn't just her, most of the herd did. Her record is just one that shows it the best.

 

[Victoria]

Bad bull, drought, lack of minerals due to poor pasture or hay?

 

[Hippie Rancher]

huh?

 

[ALACOWMAN]

well you kept the calf. and she had a heavy birth weight.. and the cow was in her prime. must of been something enviromental .

 

[Workinonit Farm]

My first thoughts are similar to Victoria and Alacowman, pasture conditions, drought, etc. something to do with environment, then my second thought is the bull that was used.

Katherine

 

[ALACOWMAN]

My first thoughts are similar to Victoria and Alacowman, pasture conditions, drought, etc. something to do with environment, then my second thought is the bull that was used.

Katherine

could be but i was giving him the benefit of the doubt. since she retained the heifer;-)

 

[Sir Loin]

randiliana
Re:

what would you say may have caused her lapse in 2002???

I don’t see a lapse in 2002, but I do question as to why the ADG of 2001 is so high.
IMO the ADG in 2002 is right in line, it is the ADG of 2001 that is out of line and with all other factors being equal the sire can only be the cause.

Your ADG mean number is 2. 47.
You avg ADG is 2.45
So it could be said that your ADG after 9 calves is 2.47 or 2.45. or the avg of the two of 2.46 which should not be reached until 2003 (which was actually 2.49 Close enough).
So you see the 2001 with an ADG of 2.60 that is out of line.
And as I said, with all other factors being equal, it could have only been caused by the sire based on the information furnished. :tiphat:
SL

 

[randiliana]

I'm surprised no one said disease. The other ideas were all valid, drought, poor hay, the bull
or minerals.

The problem was BVD. That was the first year that we vaccinated for it. And the previous summer we had a PI cow in the herd. She was done in early in the summer, but it was too late to vaccinate the cows. I am sure we had som PI calves out of the deal as well. But even if you take out the possibility of PI calves, we lost between 60 and 137 lbs on that calf. And likely on most of the other calves that year.

The heifer was kept, as she was one of the best heifers we had that year. I believe she had 2 calves then came up dry, so she is no longer in the herd.

Anyways, back to the BVD, I am a firm believer in vaccination. Since we have started vaccinating, we have had very few abortions, and our weaning weights have come up. Even figuring a loss of 60 lbs on each calf, it does't take many to pay for the vaccine. Then you can add the rest to your bottom line. This year we vaccinated with Express 10, which allows you to register your animals as BVD vaccinated, and they guarantee any 'verified' cattle to be BVD free (no PI's) and they say that they will pay if one shows up, or if we were to have an abortion that traces back to BVD.

Why was the ADG so high in 2001? Well firstly, she was at that time going to be 5, most people think that a cow is in her prime from 5-8 years of age. It was her first steer, and that was probably part of it. Also, if I remember, it was a fairly wet year that year. But, honestly, when she had 2 other calves well over that 2.60 mark, I don't see how you think that is so high......

 

[Sir Loin]

randiliana
I still don’t get it!
You gave me the cause (BVD) but what on your record indicated that to you?
You pointed to the 10/02’s ADG of 2.16 but that tells me nothing as it’s within a your cows expected bell curve.
What am I missing?

Re:

I don't see how you think that is so high......

In short, her calf’s ADG regressed in 02 from 01 when it should have gone up, not down.
Therefore using the bell curve based on the mean # and the average # and the average of both, 02’s # was inline with the bell curve. So I can only assume 01’s was the one out of line and therefore it must be the result/fault of the bull.

Re:

most people think that a cow is in her prime from 5-8 years of age.

Your almost right.
The rule of thumb is: that a cow reaches her prime from 5-8 years of age, and then the bell flattens out. The sooner she reaches her prime the flatter the bells top.
Her prime could be from 5-on out, but it tends to decline slightly at 10.
SL

 

[randiliana]

Well, take a look at her record. It covers every calf she ever had. The first was a 2.01, the second 2.15, the third 2.60. At this point I am expecting her to have a calf in that 2.4-2.7 ADG, NOT to drop suddenly (especially since she is now 5) which is what happened. To drop down to 2.16, then bounce back up to 2.49 is rather unexpected. It COULD have been attributed to the bull, but in this case it was not. If it were just this one cow, and this one sire then it would have been different. BUT, I know it was BVD. The entire herd, about 80 pair that year, had drops that year. Not all the bulls were new.

You are right, her record doesn't indicate that there was anything else going on. But that was the whole point. If I had put down that it was BVD you would have known. Just trying to point out that there are MORE reasons for a cow to have a 'miss' than just the feed and the bull she was bred to. See, the thing is I KNOW what attributed to it.

Here are the ADG's from a couple other cows, these were bred to the same, and different bulls as the 1st cow.
99 - 0.00,,,1.85,,, 0.00,,,1.80

00 - 2.19,,, 2.12,,, 2.37,,,2.05

01 - 2.52,,, 2.04,,, 2.55,,,2.12

02 - 1.72,,, 1.79,,, 1.93,,,1.12

03 - 2.39,,, 2.12,,, 2.06,,,2.16

04 - 2.56,,, 2.27,,, 2.61,,,adopted

05 - 2.72,,, 2.23,,,2.41,,,2.44

06 - 2.66,,, 2.16,,, 2.40,,,2.59

07 - 2.82,,, 2.06,,, 2.33,,, 0.00

 

[Sir Loin]

randiliana
Re:

The entire herd, about 80 pair that year, had drops that year. Not all the bulls were new.

OK I get it, but we were not given that info so you can’t expect us to come up with a proper diagnosis.

But the 01’s 2.60 is still to high. It should have been between 00’s 2.15 and 03’s 2.49. And even for a bull calf that is to high unless subsequent years showed the same/or better rate of growth.

But that’s just my opinion.
It’s been fun
SL

 

[randiliana]

randiliana
Re:

The entire herd, about 80 pair that year, had drops that year. Not all the bulls were new.

OK I get it, but we were not given that info so you can’t expect us to come up with a proper diagnosis.

But the 01’s 2.60 is still to high. It should have been between 00’s 2.15 and 03’s 2.49. And even for a bull calf that is to high unless subsequent years showed the same/or better rate of growth.

But that’s just my opinion.
It’s been fun
SL

Well, some of the subsequent years did have similar or better growth. There are SO many things that play into how each calf grows. A hard birth, an easy birth. Did mom get sick, or was she off. Did it rain lots or was it dry. The sire of course plays a big part.

I like to keep track of the ADG, even more so that adj WW. It is just a personal preferance. But I rarely get too concerned over an ADG that is .10 over or under what I expect. That is only a 20 lb difference either way. But when I see a .3 or more that is something that catches my eye. It had to happen for a reason. Maybe the bull, maybe sickness, maybe it was a drought.

 

[Victoria]

I thought of sickness but you had said that you retained the heifer so I didn't think that would be it. Agree about vaccinating though, it's worth the money.

 

[randiliana]

I thought of sickness but you had said that you retained the heifer so I didn't think that would be it. Agree about vaccinating though, it's worth the money.

As they say, hind sight is 20/20...... At the time I didn't know much about BVD. Going through it was a learning experience. Low growth rates on lots of calves, really low growth rates on a few of the others.