Some Thoughts on Cow vs Calf Weights

[randiliana]

This was the first year that we weighed all of our cows. It is something that I have wanted to do for years, but wasn't worth the fight with DH to do it. But this year we had the scale set up under the squeeze and didn't have time to dismantle it between weighing calves and preg checking the cows. It was interesting to find out just what the cows weighed and they were a good 100 lbs heavier than we though. Of course it was a pretty awesome year for fattening cows too.

Now that I've done all the number crunching, and looked at all the comparisons that I can think of I've had time to really think about some things.

There is just something about this cow:calf weight thing that bugs me. I've always heard that a cow should raise between 45 - 50% of her body weight, but that is very much open to interpretation, how old are the calves when you weigh, and when are you supposed to weigh the cows... I used adjusted 205 day weights on the calves and of course the Oct 1 weight of the cow, that's about as good as I could figure it... I was happy enough with the average of the herd, it was 46%.

Of course some of what I found just cemented what I thought about certain cows, that they are good producers, or not, some of it surprised me that a certain cow was not nearly as good as I had considered her, or way better than I had thought (if you want to use the ratio thing to look at it only). So because of all these things I thought I'd compare the cow to the average 205 day weight of all her calves, and what I found there really did surprise me. In general when using multiple calves averaged and a mature cow weight, the ratio was between 37-40%.

And that really got me thinking about this ratio thing... There are just so many different variables that go into what a cow and/or calf weighs on any given year...

1. The bull! Now think about that one, there are good bulls, there are poor bulls. There are maternal sires, there are terminal sires. There are bulls that look good on paper but that don't produce results....
2. Hybrid Vigour.... Presumably a cross bred calf will weigh more than a straight bred, and what the crossed breeds are can make a big difference too. British/British probably won't weigh quite the same as British/Continental...
3. Grass/Feed. You have drought years and normal years and years with tons of feed....Feed makes a big difference!
4. A cow's body type.... Some cows are fat, some not so much. If you use this ratio thing, the way I see it, on 2 cows with the same frame your are going to be penalizing your fat cow.....

So the more I think about it, and as interesting as all these ratios are, I don't see using this as a reliable way to manage your herd... Sure it's good to use to benchmark where your herd is as a whole, and to use to compare within herd, but with the # of variables that go into what a cow and/or calf weighs it just doesn't seem to be a great tool to use to cull your herd...

 

[Nesikep]

I wish I had a scale as well so I could at least train my eye a little to better judge the weighs of the ones that would be too much hassle to get through the chute.

I think Hybrid vigor is a little overrated.. I think it probably only really shows up well in the cross of two fullbloods, but since many 'purebreds' are only 85-95%, I think it won't make that much difference.

I weaned 7 weeks early this year, I needed the pasture and I had a bunch of cows that could use some time to put condition back on.. and heck, the price was right!. I found I was at about a 500 lb average while usually I've been around 650 lb.. 7 weeks ought to put me on par with my previous years... I also didn't sell 2 of the biggest steers that were in the 600's, and kept my nicest heifers as well.

Going by percentages alone, I would figure I'm in the 40% area, I have some BIG cows (1800-2000 lb), and they wean about 700 lb calves in 205 days, so that brings the average down, but especially last year I had 3 first timers that will be moderate sized cows (12-1300 lb mature size) that raised great steers.. One cow I figure weighed 1100 at weaning and had a 650lb steer (The one I kept for meat this year) I think cow size is only half the story as well, I've had small cows that ate like pigs and didn't produce, and other bigger cows that produced very well and stayed fat looking at grass. Then I have cows like Mega, who's not a big framed cow, probably about a frame 5, with a gigantic belly making her weight 1400 lbs, but she is another one that weaned off better than half her weight, especially with steer/bull calves... I'm hoping her daughter does the same.

I like crunching numbers too, but in the end they are nothing more than a lopsided snapshot of the animals. They do nothing to show how 'correct' the animal is, if they're a pleasure to have, etc.. Chroma and her heifer Tifa this year are pretty good examples... Tifa wasn't the fastest gaining heifer, probably around 575@205, but she is by far the best looking, has more meat in the important places, and I think she'll make a good little cow. Chroma is no big cow either, so I guess she's still doing well if you just look at the % of cow weight number.. She's probably about 1100 lb and a second calver.

 

[MO_cows]

If you were a good enough number cruncher, it would be interesting to see if one sire versus another had calves that were a higher % of dam weight. Wouldn't that be an indicator of sire's contribution of genetics for growth?

It's one more tool in the box, now you know more about your herd than you did before. It was worth doing at least this once. Your hubby owes you a "you were right dear". lol

 

[randiliana]

I could figure that out....

 

[Willow Springs]

So the more I think about it, and as interesting as all these ratios are, I don't see using this as a reliable way to manage your herd... Sure it's good to use to benchmark where your herd is as a whole, and to use to compare within herd, but with the # of variables that go into what a cow and/or calf weighs it just doesn't seem to be a great tool to use to cull your herd...

I did this project quite a few years ago, but included frame scoring and body condition scoring. The reason for the body condition scoring was to account for the thinner cows versus fatter cows. I found a research paper on-line that had come up with an estimate of what each point of body condition was worth in terms of live weight. Once I adjusted all of the cows body weight using this adjustment I found that cows of a certain frame weighed very close to the same weight, but some were fatter than others. To take it one step further the cows in the bottom half of the herd for adjusted bodyweight weaned a higher percentage of calf than did the heavier cows (I think most people accept this as fact), and had a higher average body condition score. I guess what it showed me is that I don't want any cows that were over 5 frame because in our environment, and with the type of cows I like these cows weighed 1400-1500 lbs with a 3 (Scottish/Canadian system).

 

[randiliana]

Very interesting, Willow Springs. I'll have to search for that paper. I would have to guess, but I would put our cows in a 5-6 frame, and find that the cows in that 14-1500 lb range were what I consider the best producers.

 

[inyati13]

I wish I had a scales but I don't like messing with my facility. I like how my chute is bedded. My chute is bedded on old conveyor belt. Makes it a little higher, drains well, and cleans well. I have narrow strips of belt right under both ends so water does not stand in the depression formed by the weight of the chute.

In regard to weights, I am getting better at estimations. I estimate and then compare that to the sale weight. I was as much as 300 pounds under-estimating a cow's weight. I am finding that baby calves weigh more than I was estimating.

 

[randiliana]

Inyati, estimating is good, and you will get better the more you do. But if you really want to add a scale, you don't need to move your chute. This is the first year we put it under a chute. It's totally portable, and while we did build a spot at home for it, complete with a cage, we just bring it to the cattle when we take calf weights. For many years, all we did was use a platform, with a gate in front and a post behind them.

 

[Willow Springs]

I think is was about 150 lbs per body condiiton score using the Scottish/Candian system. So when adjusting a 1300 lb score 2 cow; she became a 1450 lb at BCS 3.

 

[randiliana]

OK, cool

 

[inyati13]

Inyati, estimating is good, and you will get better the more you do. But if you really want to add a scale, you don't need to move your chute. This is the first year we put it under a chute. It's totally portable, and while we did build a spot at home for it, complete with a cage, we just bring it to the cattle when we take calf weights. For many years, all we did was use a platform, with a gate in front and a post behind them.

Thanks. Please post a picture of what that type of scale looks like or a web site. That might be just what I want.

 

[Stocker Steve]

And that really got me thinking about this ratio thing... There are just so many different variables that go into what a cow and/or calf weighs on any given year...

Some just cull based on # of calf, but obviously you will end up with bigger cows that may be less efficient.

Do you have a few that are really low in the ratio ?

 

[randiliana]

All it is, is a set of weigh bars with a electronic monitor. When we are using it away from home, we bolt the weigh bars to 2 heavy planks (bridge timbers work well) and then set them under the platform. We built our own platform, using 2x6 lumber running the long way, with a few shorter (width of your chute) 2x6 underneath for support. This works fine for calves. If I were building to weigh cows, I would use 2 to 3 4x4 for your under structure (lengthwise ) with 2x6 bolted on widthwise. For calves, 8 feet is long enough, but I'd go at least 10 feet for cows.

 

[randiliana]

And that really got me thinking about this ratio thing... There are just so many different variables that go into what a cow and/or calf weighs on any given year...

Some just cull based on # of calf, but obviously you will end up with bigger cows that may be less efficient.

Do you have a few that are really low in the ratio ?

Generally, we just cull on lbs too. I have a minimum amount of weight (I use ADG or 205 day weight) that I think a cow should be able to raise. Basically they need to be near (not necessarily right at) the average of the entire herd, which this year is 590 lbs, especially for cows. For heifers, I have learned that there is a minimum that a heifer should raise (barring illness) if she is ever to be a productive cow. I have found that the magic # is about 1.80 lbs/day or 369 lbs + whatever the BW was. So around 430-450 lbs.

We had about 30 head (out of 150) that were under 40%. However, most of these, were either 2 year olds, older cows (10+), cows with adopted calves, and cows we bought. There was, however 1 that really surprised me. I had her as one of my better calf raisers, but she weighed over 1600 lbs and had a ratio of 33% this year and her average was 36%. Add to that that she always raises a narrow (600 lb usually), but narrow enough that we never, ever consider keeping her heifer calves, and she is going to leave this year, especially with cull prices and replacement prices! And one other cow, who didn't really surprise me, just confirmed what I thought about her. Her ratio this year was 36% and average is 33%. I'm quite certain that there was another one, but we didn't get a weight on her, and she was dry anyways.

OTOH, there was 50 that were over 50%. Many of those were 2 year olds, but 20 of them were 3+ years old.

 

[ANAZAZI]

Generally, we just cull on lbs too. I have a minimum amount of weight (I use ADG or 205 day weight) that I think a cow should be able to raise. For heifers, I have learned that there is a minimum that a heifer should raise (barring illness) if she is ever to be a productive cow. I have found that the magic # is about 1.80 lbs/day or 369 lbs + whatever the BW was. So around 430-450 lbs.

Not to derail or anything; just wondered why one would change the minimum requirement because the first calver had been ill, is there a particular reason to keep those that has been ill?

 

[Stocker Steve]

We had about 30 head (out of 150) that were under 40%. However, most of these, were either 2 year olds, older cows (10+), cows with adopted calves, and cows we bought..

Not confident on how to evaluate 2 year olds who were bred to low bw bulls. They stay unless they are trouble makers.
Have a couple older, smaller, alway fat, herf cows who raise below average sized calves. I have pondered on this and elected to retain their F1 heifers.
Have a couple purchased cows who now have a below average sized calf. I have been pretty judgmental here - - and they go down the road if there is any other concern and/or they look like poor milkers.

This is usually 50% that are below average. What is your typical cow culling rate ?

 

[randiliana]

Is there a particular reason to keep something that had been sick, no, but at the same time, is there a particular reason to cull her because she was ill, providing that with treatment they got better, and bred back to calve the following year.

Although, I was more thinking about the calf being sick. Scours, pneumonia, diphtheria, foot rot (most diseases) will really reduce weight gain, to the point that the calf may be unable to catch up to the rest of the herd by weaning (sometimes, ever). So, I will almost always give those cows another chance to prove themselves. If you think about it, it probably makes as much or more sense than giving the cow that lost her calf another chance by fostering a different calf onto her.

 

[ANAZAZI]

Is there a particular reason to keep something that had been sick, no, but at the same time, is there a particular reason to cull her because she was ill, providing that with treatment they got better, and bred back to calve the following year.

Although, I was more thinking about the calf being sick. Scours, pneumonia, diphtheria, foot rot (most diseases) will really reduce weight gain, to the point that the calf may be unable to catch up to the rest of the herd by weaning (sometimes, ever). So, I will almost always give those cows another chance to prove themselves. If you think about it, it probably makes as much or more sense than giving the cow that lost her calf another chance by fostering a different calf onto her.

Thanks for clarifying. While I personally try to cull those cows/heifers that struggled in some way, I suppose there is not a lot of merit to do so in a commercial herd.

 

[randiliana]

We had about 30 head (out of 150) that were under 40%. However, most of these, were either 2 year olds, older cows (10+), cows with adopted calves, and cows we bought..

Not confident on how to evaluate 2 year olds who were bred to low bw bulls. They stay unless they are trouble makers.
Have a couple older, smaller, alway fat, herf cows who raise below average sized calves. I have pondered on this and elected to retain their F1 heifers.
Have a couple purchased cows who now have a below average sized calf. I have been pretty judgmental here - - and they go down the road if there is any other concern and/or they look like poor milkers.

This is usually 50% that are below average. What is your typical cow culling rate ?

I guess I missed this comment earlier.

I've learned to cull the very bottom heifers off. If they don't have the milk to raise a 400 lb calf (especially if the others are above that, I have found that they will almost never raisee a good calf. The thing is, it all depends what YOUR standards are. Most of our heifers will raise a 500-600 lb calf, so one that is over 100 lbs below the average I don't find to be worth feeding for another year, on the slim chance she'll raise an average calf the next year.

We always seem to have a couple smaller cows, that generally raise a slightly below avg to average calf every year as well. But I always try to remind myself that they are smaller than the average cow in the herd, so it stands to reason. If they are raising a calf that is close to average, I don't worry about it. Would I keep a replacement from them? Probably not, unless I were wanting to downsize my cows, or perhaps if they were consistently was early calving, raised what I considered to be a good calf for their size and were otherwise trouble free.

A couple things to always remember with purchased cows, 1. You don't know the bull or bulls they were bred to, and it often takes a year or so for new cows to acclimate to your area and your management. Unless they are substantially below the herd average, I always like to see what they can do when bred to my choice of bulls.

You are right that 50% are below average. I like to tighten up the range from bottom to top, and the best way (from a management standpoint) is to remove the very bottom end. Another way we try to improve the below average cows is to breed them to terminal (Char in our case) bulls.

Our typically lull culling rate is 15% or less most years. This year it will be closer to 20% because we are planning to cull off a fair e'er ly large # of old cows, and we had about 10% dry.

 

[randiliana]

Thanks for clarifying. While I personally try to cull those cows/heifers that struggled in some way, I suppose there is not a lot of merit to do so in a commercial herd.

There are things that we cull strictly on, and things that we will put up with to a point. Most of it comes down to expense vs income, and to how much work we have to put into each cow to keep her . It costs to cull and replace. Performance is pretty important here, so I'm willing to put up with a little bit to get it.

I might keep a producing cow around in spite of some issue she has (bad feet, bad bag...)if they aren't causing me more work, or affecting her production. But I wouldn't keep a calf out of her. As well, I will give a good, or young cow another chance if she lost her calf, providing that she has no other reason to be culled, and she raises a Foster calf, without causing me weeks of work to get her to accept it. If she or her calf got sick, and as a results had poorer performance I would also give her another chance, again so long as there were no other reason to cull her. In general we cull on a 2 strikes program.

I don't mind messing with a cow or calf once, so a treatment for foot rot or pneumonia or scours is not an issue. But if I see that it has been, or think that it will be a recurring problem, then we cull.

We have a pasture where we run a terminal bull, it is where we put all our problem, lower performance, and later calving cows (the ones that need to prove themselves, or who we want to make sure we don't keep the heifer calves as replacements )

There is a method to our madness...