Sire descriptions

[HOSS]

Since I have been doing A.I. I have noticed something that, over time, is beginning to chaffe the heck out of my hide. It is the descriptions written for each sire in the catalogs. Who in the heck writes these things??? They really talk up how good a bull is in say the legs and feet catagory or maternal qualities or calving ease. You look at the picture and the physical qualities they talk about are actually the flaws in the bull. It almost seems like they inadvertantly draw attention to the flaws by trying to fluff those characteristics. Am I the only one that has noticed this? In one current catalog they have several bulls that are "real female makers" and produce incredibily "fertile" females. You look at the bulls yearling scrotal circumference and he is only 34 cm????? I have seen where most studies show a direct correlation between bull scrotal circumference and female offspring fertility. I don't think I would want.....let along A.I. with a bull that only had a 34 cm scrotal circumference. Another is when they talk about how proven the bull is and how calf crops are uniform but when you look at the accuracy of the EPD's they are in the .45 range.

I may be overthinking this but I guess I will just stick to looking at the phenotype and EPD's and seeing how both stack up with my goals and choose on that basis and let the hyped descriptions slide on by.

 

[cowwrangler]

yea they all have the best bull in the country,lol,promotion,promotion,promotion,i agree with you,the ones with no pics i dont even consider unless someone has used him

 

[Lucky_P]

Hoss,
Scrotal size - usually ascribed to scrotal circumference - gives us the best indicator of a bull's potential to produce sperm volume/numbers; a big factory produces more product.
The claims that yearling SC is related to daughter's 'fertility' is overstated. Yes, studies have shown that high SC bulls' daughters reach puberty (begin cycling) earlier than those of lower SC bulls - but studies have shown that it's a minimal thing - about 1 day earlier for each 1cm increase in SC - and is NOT really an accurate indicator of the daughters' actual 'fertility'.
Heifer Pregnancy and Stayability are probably a better measure of actual 'fertility'.

Do I look at SC epds when choosing a sire? Yes.
Do I pay a lot of attention to it? No; it's probably the least important trait in my selection criteria.
I'll choose a bull with high SC epd, if everything else is good, but don't necessarily shy away from a low SC epd if the bull brings other things to the table.
Granted, I'm breeding for replacement females and feeder calves, not selling seedstock.

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

Great post as usual Lucky_P.

 

[HOSS]

Hoss,
Scrotal size - usually ascribed to scrotal circumference - gives us the best indicator of a bull's potential to produce sperm volume/numbers; a big factory produces more product.
The claims that yearling SC is related to daughter's 'fertility' is overstated. Yes, studies have shown that high SC bulls' daughters reach puberty (begin cycling) earlier than those of lower SC bulls - but studies have shown that it's a minimal thing - about 1 day earlier for each 1cm increase in SC - and is NOT really an accurate indicator of the daughters' actual 'fertility'.
Heifer Pregnancy and Stayability are probably a better measure of actual 'fertility'.

Do I look at SC epds when choosing a sire? Yes.
Do I pay a lot of attention to it? No; it's probably the least important trait in my selection criteria.
I'll choose a bull with high SC epd, if everything else is good, but don't necessarily shy away from a low SC epd if the bull brings other things to the table.
Granted, I'm breeding for replacement females and feeder calves, not selling seedstock.

Lucky, here is an interesting study done by Colorado State University that ties scrotal circumference to other maternal areas in addition to early puberty. Midland Bull Test also has a study that shows females sired by bulls with larger scrotal circumference breed back faster. There are several other university studies out there as well. Pretty cool.
http://jas.fass.org/content/67/11/2881.1.full.pdf

 

[dun]

We had a bull that measured 42 cm at yearling, none of his daughters made it in the herd past their first calf. AI bull we used was a 34 and 2 of his daughters are still producing.

 

[regolith]

Same with the bulls I'm picking. The written description is about the last thing I look at because it seems like someone thinks they've got to say something, and any string of words will do.

One that interests me is bulls with extreme rump angle epd, which I'm trying to avoid. Sometimes you can see it in the bull photo and sometimes you can't but I don't think I've *ever* seen a daughter or dam photo with a high rump even when the bull's epd is as bad as it gets.

2 out of how many how long ago, Dun?

 

[3waycross]

Here's one for you. I had a dtr of his that I shipped because she was just plumb nuts. Apparently disposition is NOT heriditary. To be fair he is pretty quiet but I have yet to see one out of him that I liked. I love the carcass statements here. His CW is a 4 and His Marbling is barely positive.
Oh yea and he sports a NEAR PERFECT FS OF 5.7...........WOW! SEND ME 100 STRAWS. and he is also an outcross to most of nothing!
DISCLAIMER....TO BE FAIR I HATE THE DISHONEST SOB'S GUTS WHO BRED THIS BULL!

XXXXXNAME
____________ is one of the most unique sires in the ________ breed. ___________ bridges the gulf between rock solid carcass genetics, true performance, and show stopping phenotype. He sports a near perfect, 5.7 frame score, is a total outcross to Echo, Extra 2106, Bronco, and Carolina Fortune and is backed a dam who is the right size and with a perfect udder. His quiet, calm disposition is a huge plus. If your program needs fresh, new genetics, with a solid "carcass punch", you can't ignore ______________.
11/29/2011 EPD
CE BW WW YW M TM GL CED Scr CW REA MB DtF CV FM
EPD 105 2.1 39 82 19 39 -1.2 104 0.4 4 0.12 0.07 2.0 10.98 21.57
ACC 0.26 0.49 0.35 0.14 0.12 0.16 0.09 0.12 I I I - -

 

[ANAZAZI]

Here's one for you. I had a dtr of his that I shipped because she was just plumb nuts. Apparently disposition is NOT heriditary. To be fair he is pretty quiet but I have yet to see one out of him that I liked. I love the carcass statements here. His CW is a 4 and His Marbling is barely positive.
Oh yea and he sports a NEAR PERFECT FS OF 5.7...........WOW! SEND ME 100 STRAWS. and he is also an outcross to most of nothing!
DISCLAIMER....TO BE FAIR I HATE THE DISHONEST SOB'S GUTS WHO BRED THIS BULL!

XXXXXNAME
____________ is one of the most unique sires in the ________ breed. ___________ bridges the gulf between rock solid carcass genetics, true performance, and show stopping phenotype. He sports a near perfect, 5.7 frame score, is a total outcross to Echo, Extra 2106, Bronco, and Carolina Fortune and is backed a dam who is the right size and with a perfect udder. His quiet, calm disposition is a huge plus. If your program needs fresh, new genetics, with a solid "carcass punch", you can't ignore ______________.
11/29/2011 EPD
CE BW WW YW M TM GL CED Scr CW REA MB DtF CV FM
EPD 105 2.1 39 82 19 39 -1.2 104 0.4 4 0.12 0.07 2.0 10.98 21.57
ACC 0.26 0.49 0.35 0.14 0.12 0.16 0.09 0.12 I I I - -

Why would "total outcross" be something to put in the catalog? It is not necessarily a good thing...

 

[RD-Sam]

It all depends on the breed about what is acceptable, but you will find that 34 cm is in the acceptable range for a yearling with pretty much any breed. I've had a few angus bulls in the 34 to 35 range, most of them lately have been 37 or so. My Wagyu bull was 29 at 15 months, pretty typical for the breed, and he has the highest sex drive of any bull I have, he is a breeding fool! :lol2:

 

[cow pollinater]

You also have to keep in mind that "proven" can come from a couple different sources. EPD's are averages. If we look at weaning weight a cow with a -10 mated to a bull with a +60 would average to a +35 but in reality it can be anywhere in between. If both parents are proven to put out a WW of 35, then we can expect that 35 with alot more accuracy regardless of how many calves he's put on the ground.
Bloodlines play a big role. A bull with multiple generations of high accuracy sires and dams is fairly predictable as long as there are no negative extremes lurking in the pedigree. There is still a need to see accuracy and progeny but a solid pedigree with no holes is a good start towards accuracy.
Genomics have helped tremendously in choosing which sires will match up to their genetic potential and which ones don't. Nothing will ever beat evaluating progeny on the ground but a genomic bull that has a pedigree to match is fairly safe.

I personally read the descriptions almost as much as I read the numbers. Alot of people fit my physical description but it takes those that have been around me and my kids to tell someone else how we're different from the rest. Reducing everyone to numbers leaves alot of really quality cattle looking just average.

 

[dun]

2 out of how many how long ago, Dun?

Only got 2 heifers from each bull. All the same year, they will be carrying their third calf in a week or so if they stay on their heat cycles.