Simental BW Epd Question

[aplusmnt]

Our new Simmental bull has (CE 11.1) and (BW -.2) epd's. I was thinking this would fine as a bull on some heifers. But a friend told me when using him on Angus heifers, this might not be that good of BW epd.

I was thinking that by Simmental standards he was fine, but when using on other cattle say smaller framed Angus would this change? If so wondering what this epd would be similar to as far as Angus epd's go? He tried to tell me that the -.2 was similar to like a +4.0 in Angus.

 

[dun]

Jeanne can answer this better then I but from what I;ve read, a CE of 10 is recommended for british heifers. Where the catch comes in is the accuracy, possible variation, etc.

dun

 

[cypressfarms]

aplus,

check out the following table:

http://www.marc.usda.gov/cattle/gpe/AB_EPD2005News.pdf

You can compare breeds using across breed epd's adjustment factors.

Simm. bulls epd's birth weights are 5.9 lbs heavier than angus, according to the 2005 study; so comparing the Simm bull with a -.2 to an angus, the comparable angus would be +5.7 bw epd.

same old same old, you know that this is not exact, but it's the best we have so far.

CE, from what I understood was supposed to represent ease of calving to heifers; not sure what, if any, breed though. It may mean the bulls breed, I'm not sure. CE of over +11 is normally o.k. though.

 

[Aero]

CE, from what I understood was supposed to represent ease of calving to heifers; not sure what, if any, breed though. It may mean the bulls breed, I'm not sure. CE of over +11 is normally o.k. though.

i would imagine the CED is only based on straight Simmental heifers or at least 3/4 Simmental. the Simmental EPD system only has a CED value if the animal is 3/4 or more Simmental.

cypress is exactly right about the equivalent Angus BW EPD of +5.7. Many people say they wont use a bull higher that +3.0 on heifers and some some not over +2.0. there is a good chance that the calf will be born easily, but if not this might be a good reason.

i think you have a decision to make that nobody on here can make for you. i would say your chance of pulling the calf might be 50/50. i can tell you plenty of people have accidentally put a "low BW" charolais bull on Angus heifers and had few problems. FYI - a +0.0 BW EPD charolais is equivalent to a +10.0 Angus bull.

 

[SimmAngus]

What is the accuracy of his epd's and his sires? Who was his sire? Depending on his sire I would consider him for use on heifers. We breed Angus heifers and cows to Simmental bulls. The calving ease is far more important than the birth weight IMHO.

 

[MoGal]

According to the MO show me select heifer program in order for the bull to be considered calving ease he would need an accuracy of 60 % and calving ease EPD of 10.3

I'll look for the link because it gives all the breeds.

http://extension.missouri.edu/ralls/sms/semosms.htm

 

[cypressfarms]

Aero is dead on as usual.

A couple more things to look at:

-The simm's actual birthweight.
-The accuracy of the EPD's. The lower they are, the less trustworthy they are
-The actual birth weight of sire and dam of bull

Angus and brangus sire calves that have head that are hatchett shaped, and tend to deliver easier, even if they weigh more. I'm not as experienced with Simm's but at least they aren't the "pallet" headed charolais.

Your gonna have to make this call. You could always breed them to "long" or older heifers, being somewhat larger, they may have less difficulty. (This is oppossed to breeding at 12-15 months,which when the heifer calves, she still isn't full grown.

 

[aplusmnt]

The bull is a Goldmine X Mr Dunk. I got all the epd's from the owner but they did not have degree of accuracy on the listing and did not get the Birthing weight on him either. I know that is stupid, can not believe they did not have birthing weight listed with his information.

But I did not buy him for heifers, bought him to clean up some A.I. Angus, Angus x Maine cows. And then to use on some commercial Angus Cross cows. But In back of my mind I was thinking I could use him to clean up a few heifers. But I think I will just make sure I get them A.I.'d and not take any chances, till I see his first calf crop.

 

[Aero]

do you have a registration number or exact name?

 

[aplusmnt]

do you have a registration number or exact name?

Yep it is "Claim Jumper" Registeration #2255805 . I never thought about looking him up on the ASA website. Have not got his papers back yet.

http://herdbook.simmental.org/simmapp/s ... nm=2255805

After going and looking him up I was not given accurately his epd's according to the web site his Ce is 8.9 (acc .16) not 11.1 as I was given.......and BW was 0.0 (acc .22) not -.2 as I was given. A few others were not accurate either.

I did not see any place that had his actual Birthing weight. I guess live and let learn on this, the changes of his epd's would not have changed my opinion on buying him, but in future I will want to look them up and not just take their word.

 

[Aero]

[After going and looking him up I was not given accurately his epd's according to the web site his Ce is 8.9 (acc .16) not 11.1 as I was given.......and BW was 0.0 (acc .22) not -.2 as I was given. A few others were not accurate either.

it probably isnt a matter of being mislead, these things change with every update. the EPDs on low Acc animals can swing quite a bit.

 

[aplusmnt]

[After going and looking him up I was not given accurately his epd's according to the web site his Ce is 8.9 (acc .16) not 11.1 as I was given.......and BW was 0.0 (acc .22) not -.2 as I was given. A few others were not accurate either.

it probably isnt a atter of being mislead, these things change with every update. the EPDs on low Acc animals can swing quite a bit.

Thanks, that is good to know. Sure did not swing in my favor.

 

[Aero]

Thanks, that is good to know. Sure did not swing in my favor.

in perspective, they are still about the same. if a .99 Acc bull changed that much, it would barely be worth commenting on.

 

[ranchmgr]

With the pedigree you have he should be fine on heifers. My goldmine calves have all been low bw, and mr dunk is a good calving ease bull also around a plus 14 I think, breed avg. is around 5.5-6.

 

[JDI]

the EPD's Larry had posted on the auction were the fall 2005 EPD's. The ones you are seeing on the ASA's site are the spring 2006 #'s. I bid on the same bull & he should be ok to use on heifers. Claim Jumper is a frame 6 bull so that will help also....glad you got him bought.

 

[aplusmnt]

the EPD's Larry had posted on the auction were the fall 2005 EPD's. The ones you are seeing on the ASA's site are the spring 2006 #'s. I bid on the same bull & he should be ok to use on heifers. Claim Jumper is a frame 6 bull so that will help also....glad you got him bought.

JDI are you the one that raises Simbrah that is working in Iraq at the moment? Larry had told me that someone over in Iraq was bidding on the bull also.

 

[JDI]

the EPD's Larry had posted on the auction were the fall 2005 EPD's. The ones you are seeing on the ASA's site are the spring 2006 #'s. I bid on the same bull & he should be ok to use on heifers. Claim Jumper is a frame 6 bull so that will help also....glad you got him bought.

Yes, that's me...the only reason you own this bull is the problems I have with internet connectios & phones here. I ended up purchasing a bull from Forster Farms for $2000.00 more than you paid for your bull. Really glad you bought him & hope you have good luck with him...I was going to use him on heifers myself...

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Sorry I hadn't jumped in on this thread. Been toooo busy to check new threads.
Anyway, CE is more important than BW. And yes, any CE of 10 or better is recommended for use on British heifers. I saw the pic of your bull, and he has nice flat shoulders. He should be fine - IF - you raise your heifers to reach the 65% mature weight goal. I hate to say a bull will be fine on heifers - than they turn out to be 500# dinks. Knowing what you have been raising, I can't imagine you are short-changing your heifers' growth.
ASA just changed EPD's to the new 06 spring numbers about 2-3 weeks ago. So the breeder was using Fall numbers.
And yes, Goldmine & Dunk are great CE pedigrees.

 

[Aero]

And yes, any CE of 10 or better is recommended for use on British heifers.

is this just conventional wisdom or did the ASA state this at some point?

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

And yes, any CE of 10 or better is recommended for use on British heifers.

is this just conventional wisdom or did the ASA state this at some point?

This is a quote from ASA:
Calving data collected by Montana State Univ on over 2,000 British heifers prove that Simmental sires, when selected for calving ease, can be used successfully on heifers.
Simmental sires now calve easier than Herefords and comparable to Angus (within 2%) when used on cows*
*based on MARC research

I don't have their quote in front of me, but yes, CE +10 is what ASA recommends as the benchmark for using on British heifers.