Selecting Semen

[inyati13]

I have a $200 credit from my AI class and want to use it. It is with SS. What opinion is there on 7AN357, Top Hand, $20 per straw. I plan to use it on heifers that are simangus. I was mainly selecting based on CE.

 

[AllForage]

You aren't admitting to single trait selection are you?

 

[chippie]

I always like to see a photo of the bull and his offspring if possible. If I like his looks, then I will check the EPDs to see if he will meet our needs.
If he doesn't, then I keep on looking.

 

[Lucky_P]

Calves should arrive alive, with no difficulty, and WW is good. CEM, Mrb, CE are all pretty decent. Good docility
Milk is higher than I want here, and $EN is much more negative than I prefer, if I'm breeding for replacement heifers.

You could do a lot worse.

 

[inyati13]

You aren't admitting to single trait selection are you?

AllForage, sorry I did not get back to you on this. I know you from your previous message that breeding is an interest to you. I am not a breeder in the sense of the word cattlemen apply to it. I have an excellent education in the biological and natural sciences. I had every biological science course you can imagine including genetics but I am not aware of the concept of single trait selection so I cannot deny or acknowledge it. I had a course called Speciation, which is devoted to the science of how plant and animal species come to be. Nature sometimes uses natural selection to select for a trait that will help an organism survive in a demanding niche. Could be the same concept. Tell me more.

 

[inyati13]

Calves should arrive alive, with no difficulty, and WW is good. CEM, Mrb, CE are all pretty decent. Good docility
Milk is higher than I want here, and $EN is much more negative than I prefer, if I'm breeding for replacement heifers.

You could do a lot worse.

Thank you. I sell 600 to 725 pound calves to the feeder market. I am most concerned about getting past that first calf with no complications. You recognized that clearly in the words, "if I'm breeding for replacement heifers." But to explain, I have retained my own heifers but I don't breed for replacement heifers. I plan to buy open or bred heifers for replacement of culled cows. That way I don't have all the time and money that goes into the production of replacements. If I have a calf that I just have to keep I might. Just not what I want to do. Remember, I am suppose to be in my golden years. :lol:

 

[AllForage]

You aren't admitting to single trait selection are you?

AllForage, sorry I did not get back to you on this. I know you from your previous message that breeding is an interest to you. I am not a breeder in the sense of the word cattlemen apply to it. I have an excellent education in the biological and natural sciences. I had every biological science course you can imagine including genetics but I am not aware of the concept of single trait selection so I cannot deny or acknowledge it. I had a course called Speciation, which is devoted to the science of how plant and animal species come to be. Nature sometimes uses natural selection to select for a trait that will help an organism survive in a demanding niche. Could be the same concept. Tell me more.

To me it is the selection of an animal based one one trait while ignoring most others. Or making large compromises in order to attempt the success in one area. But remember everything is a balancing act. When one trait goes up another goes down. The problem with AI these days is there mostly is no intimate knowledge of the cowherd behind the bull. Beyond numbers and a doctored photo how does one really understand the herd and management?

Careful on the nature logic with domestic animals. There is nothing natural about east of the Mississippi paddock farms. We fence, feed in winter, and force man-made standards onto cattle. Nature obviously has it's influence, but it the breeder's eye that should take charge.

 

[inyati13]

You aren't admitting to single trait selection are you?

AllForage, sorry I did not get back to you on this. I know you from your previous message that breeding is an interest to you. I am not a breeder in the sense of the word cattlemen apply to it. I have an excellent education in the biological and natural sciences. I had every biological science course you can imagine including genetics but I am not aware of the concept of single trait selection so I cannot deny or acknowledge it. I had a course called Speciation, which is devoted to the science of how plant and animal species come to be. Nature sometimes uses natural selection to select for a trait that will help an organism survive in a demanding niche. Could be the same concept. Tell me more.

To me it is the selection of an animal based one one trait while ignoring most others. Or making large compromises in order to attempt the success in one area. But remember everything is a balancing act. When one trait goes up another goes down. The problem with AI these days is there mostly is no intimate knowledge of the cowherd behind the bull. Beyond numbers and a doctored photo how does one really understand the herd and management?

Careful on the nature logic with domestic animals. There is nothing natural about east of the Mississippi paddock farms. We fence, feed in winter, and force man-made standards onto cattle. Nature obviously has it's influence, but it the breeder's eye that should take charge.

That is what I thought you would say. Where does it come from that when a trait is selected for that other traits are bound to suffer. They might indeed be the case in some instances but be careful stating that as an absolute truth. You can use selective breeding as Gregor Mendel did with snapdragons to get the exact phenotype you want. It will be a long frustrating labor but I guess if you were a monk like Gregor you wouldn't have much else to do. :lol: Maybe the rub is in defining what you want. On this board alone which is only a small percent of the population of breeders, there is not agreement of what the ideal phenotype is. I just read an interesting post by Beef Man under Breeds in which he expresses absolute disgust with all the crosses out there today. Good breeding is important. That is not debateable in my mind as there is an entire body of knowledge that goes back thousands of years to demonstrate that. I don't know what you mean by, "The problem with AI these days is there mostly is no intimate knowledge of the cowherd behind the bull." AI bulls must have a pedigree. There is a family tree. Someone knows those animals I will bet you that. Someone spent time accumulating and building the phenotype that you see in those photos. Does it matter that they are doctored? That is just advertising. I want to ask you because I think you have something to say. Are you concerned that breeders have over focused on too few traits and are throwing out more intangible traits that are less visible such as vigor, immune response, stamina, etc.?

 

[cow pollinater]

The problem with AI these days is there mostly is no intimate knowledge of the cowherd behind the bull. Beyond numbers and a doctored photo how does one really understand the herd and management?.

:bs: There are alot of hyped bulls that go into stud because the people that want "the best" will pay big bucks BUT the big name AI studs(at least most of them) have learned that the proof is in the progeny. You can find bulls in any lineup that will work in one situation but not another but you won't find bulls in any good solid lineup that have major holes in their pedigrees and yes, we do look WAAAY back into an animals pedigree before it ever even gets considered to be in the lineup because we've learned that it will bite us in the a$$ if we don't.
When the futute of your business relies on a product that a customer will be looking at for years to come, you learn the hard way to look for holes you can't see yet. Those that don't learn history are destined to repeat it so we learn it the first time we see it.

 

[regolith]

oh it's an 'absolute truth' as you'll learn if you embark on the quest to breed the perfect cow...
In fact I read recently that that is why such things as somatic cells and fertility are now in the EPDs for our dairy bulls - they didn't used to be (but that's before my time). Partly it's that focussing only on one or two parameters will lead you to consider bulls who are weak in other areas, in the aim to improve that one thing. And partly that traits are linked - in the dairy world the most obvious antagonistic traits are udder/health against production, I don't know what it would be for beef. So the bulls that are top for udder support are rarely close to the top for production, likewise, for some reason, the top production bulls seem to throw daughters who struggle to maintain condition or get in-calf.

In my country many of the bulls, I don't know what proportion, are sourced from commercial herds with no known cow family behind them - just a mother who may be an 'anomaly' who had one good son. The owner of the cow may not even have noticed her in the herd, the bull providers who wanted to contract-mate her have access to her paper ancestry and milk production records and can pick her out that way and approach the owner. This 'scientific' approach is in no way similar to the breeder who has carefully developed cow families to the point that every female born to the family will be an all-round performer with traits similar to her mothers and sisters. Consistency is the key word there.
Bull sellers are selling bulls. Some of them have lost track of the fact that a bull's 'sire line-up' is of no greater importance (though more recognisable to customers) than the dam and the cows behind her.