scour management

[rockridgecattle]

I thought i would re post this thread. A few of us producers are in the throws of calving and more producers will soon follow suit. With calving, comes scours.
The premiss behind this thread was that scours is a 90% management issue. That if we address the management before scours happens, we reduce the cost to the producer.
Changes in management style do not have to be expensive, nor are they a one solution fits all. It is what works on farm that is important.
Here is a link to Pfizer Animal Health...scour page. It gives the names of the scours, at what age most common and the color.
http://www.pfizerah.com/health.aspx?cou ... 275&type=3

Now back to the thread...

This evening we went to a vet sponsored dinner (beef of course) and the topic was scours. I learned alot and it was also a good refresher on the things we knew. Want to pass some on to y'all but I'm on brain overload and will fill y'all in tommorrow.
But a few things that i can pass on with out alot of extranious info are:
1. scours is a management issue
2. nutrition and stress play a major role on the part of the cow
3. the cow is the carrier to the major scour bugs like rota and corona. I think ecoli to but i went into brain melt at that time
4. by blacklegging cows there is passive transfer in colostrum for one type of scours..not crypto but begins with a "C"
5. calves are born with ZERO immunity from the cow. No antibodies pass the placenta while in the womb. So a high balanced colostrum within the first 6 hours of life is the best. 12-18 second dose of colostrum and after 24 not much is gained. Even after 12 hours the ability for the calf to absorb colostrum starts to diminish.

there was more and there was some simple data i would like to pass on but tommorow is another day.

On another note, our vet was telling us about some drugs she supplies. Some new and some discontinued. And as has been posted here, steroid anti inflams are hard on animals. Any how she is opting out of the steroid especially for the calfs and going non steroid. She would prefer us (our area that she services) to use non steroid in cows as well but sometimes cost might require the use of steroid but overall non steroid is the way she would like to go. I know this came out wrong and I will probably have to "explain" myself tommorrow but that is another day.

RR

 

[Vicky the vet]

The scours prevented by blackleg is Clostridium perfringens type C and D.

Other than that, I didn't see any errors or major omissions....

 

[grannysoo]

2. nutrition and stress play a major role on the part of the cow
RR

I totally agree. Not only in cows, but humans as well. Eat right and reduce stress and the body will be much more healthy.

 

[rockridgecattle]

Thanks Vicki for the bacteria name.

What I learned about that one was let's say a storm comes in and lasts for 24-48 hours. A calf is probably in hiding to protect itself and will probably not suck. When the storm passes a calf will go to the momma and gorge itself on the pile of milk she has. It's too hard on the gut of the calf and perfect conditions for the Clostridium perfringens type C and D. a calf will die suddenly
The other scours, ecoli, rota , corona, and crypto, coddcidiosis are a management issue and the cow sheds those viruses.
Scours are a 90% management issue. Management includes nutrition especially the two months prior to calving, mineral supplement, clean calving area where the animals don't come in until two weeks prior to calving, space after calving in a clean area separate from the cows who have not calved and lots of space, good quality colostrums in a timely fashion and vaccinations.

A calf is born with zero immunity. There is no antibodies which cross the placenta barrier. So a timely intake of colostrums is important; within the first 6 hours of life and a second dose before 18 hours. After 12 hours the calf's ability to absorb the colostrums starts to diminish. After 24 hours absorption is non existent. So it is real important.
Some of the factors which help absorption are less stress during calving, the hot cold thing. For example coming from a nice warm environment and being dumped in a snow bank at birth. There was a proven study done where same colostrums and same amount given to calves. The calves that were stressed absorbed 50% less than the calves that were not stressed.
Some of the things that can inhibit passive transfer of antibodies are:
Poor BCS of the dam
calving difficulty and stress
delayed first suck and
cold heat stress...the snow bank idea.

Next the cows shed the viruses that cause scours when stressed. Stress includes weather, feed protein, calving, sickness pre and post calving, and crowding. So a calf with adequate antibodies can fight the viruses. There was a study where a calf whose mom received the necessary vaccines shed 50% less of the viruses it came in contact with. A calf whose mom was not vaccinated shed 96% more of the viruses.
So to put that into perspective, a claf comes into contact with 1000 virus particles, it incubates in the calf and multiplies 10 fold and sheds 10 000 particles. The next calf picks up 10 000 particles, it multiplies 10x and then sheds 100000 particles. And so on and so on. A calf who had colsotrum with high antibodies from a vaccinated cow would shed only 50% of the viruses VS a calf who was not vaccinated shedding almost all it incubated. WOW that was a mouth full.

So in respect vaccinating cows does pay down the line in the colostrums a calf gets IN A TIMELY FASHION.
Finally, BVD plays a role here. If a cow sheds the virus, produces a PI calf, the calf's immunity is suppressed, allowing all types of sickness to affect the calf; including scours. This is where vaccinating for BVD comes into play for FP (fetal protection)
So to sum up scours and codcidiousis it a management issue and we can go along ways in preventing it by changing some of the ways we go about handling our cows and vaccinating the cow to give the calf every chance at a healthy productive life.

If I have made some mistakes or mis repped the info hopefully a vet on board can clarify what i meant. Still on brain overload

 

[rockridgecattle]

one other thing that was mentioned. Bringing in cattle to calve with our herd with in 6months prior to calving is a possible train wreck. Bringing in a calf from another farm or auction during calving to replace a dead calf so the momma is productive is a train wreck which will come back to bite us in the @$$.
Bringing in calves to bottle feed during calving or when our calves are young is a train wreck waiting to happen.
Cross contamination plays a huge role. From the water trough to the crap on our boots, hands, coveralls, we spread diseases and stress out our calves at calving time. And volia we wonder why we are fighting scours or cod...(hate spelling that word always get it wrong)
And lastly, sanitation in ourselves when treating scours goes along ways in stoping the spread. For example clean clothes or coveralls each day. Wash boots, clean treating tools after each application, wearing gloves goes along ways.

 

[rockridgecattle]

Thanks TNMBP, probably would help if i pronounced it right.

 

[3rdgeneration farmer]

nice informative post. makes sense though.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Did they discuss what products to use to vaccinate your healthy cattle - MLV vs Killed?
I have preached for years - DO NOT bring any cattle/calves onto your place prior to or during calving. Everyone thinks they will make more money if they replace that dead calf - usually NOT! Many times, that replacement calf stays good & healthy & all your other calves get sick. Meds are VERY costly.

Give an example of steroid meds vs non-steroid meds.

 

[Michelle Pankonien]

Hello,

At the Beef cattle short course last year a DVM mentioned an off lable use of the inter nasal vaccine used to prevent resp. DZ

he indicated that the mode of action of that inter nasal vaccine would disrupt the prolifferation of the virus causing the scours and would aid the calf in building its own defences.

I have tried it and seemed to see, as an addition to good suportive care and faster recovery in sick calves.

But I will always try to give banamine to lower fever/ make calf feel better, and hydrate with a good electrolyte Solution, bounce back has worked well for me for many years, also prefer warm water to mix as it helps maintain body temp not crater it, if it is viral antibiotics wont do squat, like burning time and money.

 

[rockridgecattle]

the antibiotics you use and the course of electrolytes are simillar to what we use.
but what if by changing some of our management practices we go on the proactive approach. Rather than spend the large bucks in treating calves we spend less per calf and vaccinate. As well concentrate on nutirtion and stress to decrease scour cases and decrease the cost of treating.
To say we have a good regime in treating scours is okay but one better would be to not have to treat and prevent. It would save us money in drugs, money in weight loss from the sickness and the weightloss and stress from one or multiple treatments. And as with scours not only one animal but multiple animals.
This past year was the first year we vaccinated for scours. We were skeptical. When we got the first case we called the vet and voice the displeasure at wasting money on scours and now treating. She added we needed to change some of our practices like pens for cow calf pairs. Get them out. We did.
But what we also noticed was the scours went through all 80 calves and we treated i think 4 tops.
Why, we gave them 24 hours to see if they recovered. We took notice of their tag, checked how they were, slow, isolated, not up to snuff. We checked the momma out. Was her bag sucked out or was it big from not being nursed.
Here is what we found from some of the changes we made.
After 24 hours the calf recovered on its own. The next day the bag of the cow was down to normal, the calf had spring it it's step and we did not treat. We let the antibodies from the colostrum do it's job. And that paid.
The four calves we did treat showed little improvment after 24 hours so we started the treatments. They responded quicker than say previous years.
We also noted that the calves which required treatment were calves who were stressed at birth. Whose mommas might not have quite enough colostrum or first time calvers whose colostrum is not at its best yet.
We saved money in treating calves last year. It costs to vaccinate but it costs more in treating.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Rockridge - it is great that you had the experience of NOT vaccinating to compare with vaccinating. So many people say it's a waste of time & money. But, if done PROPERLY, it SAVES $$$$ and time. Yes, you may still get the scours or respiratory problems, but, like you said, either they recoup on their own - or they respond quickly to treatment.
You explained it VERY WELL!!
You haven't said whether they discussed MLV vs killed?
As far as I'm concerned, if at all possible, you should use MLV. It used to be that you couldn't use it on calves nursing or on pregnant cows, but now there are MLV that you can use in all situations - IF COWS ARE VACCINATED prior to BREEDING. MUST READ LABELS!! We've been doing this for years, and we get all the shots in the calves mid summer - long time prior to weaning. Than we hit them again AFTER they have adjusted to weaning. This way we never have to vaccinate them under stress.

 

[rockridgecattle]

Jeanne, i totally missed your first post. Sorry

Steriod... example predef, the one we used i don't know if banamine is steriod or not
Non steriod...anafin the one we use now. There is a generic but we have not had the pleasure of purchasing that one yet. It is my understanding it is cheaper and the same.

Modfied live is way better in the vet's opinion for the respirtory diseases. Something to do with attaching to T cells

The scour guard is killed. I'm not sure if there is a ML. The one we use by pfizer first shot at preg test or weaning, second shot 3 weeks prior to calving...work slow and carefull, and if all is not finished calving by week eight of the precalving shot another dose for the preg cows.
Subsequent years, one shot pre calving and then any straglers get a shot later on. There is a shot called Cows Boss by pfizer that lasts 20 weeks but has to be given in December for march calving. For us this means two work ups close together and so not so good. Fall preg check and wormer then december...to much stress.
Your vaccinationd protocols seem simillar to ours.

Sorry for the late reply

RR

 

[rockridgecattle]

So as scours are a management issue, thought i would post some tricks we have learned over the years as well as some of the 'necessities' to have on hand.

In 2003 we had a bad scour out break. This is when we started looking at things differently with our vets help.
1. We started using an oral vaccine on the calves. Trick was you had to give it to them before the first suck for best results. As some of you know trying this can be hazzardous to ones, namely me, health.
2. We then implemented a vaccination schedule for cows. This has been a great help on two levels.
a. no messing with newborns and their mommas
b. if a calf got the scours we left them for 24 hours. We observed the calf, checked the bag on the cow, if the bag had been partially sucked, we left them alone. In 24 hours if there was not significant results then we treated. The reason was, we vaccinated, let the drug do the work. Within 24 hours they were back on the cow like nothing was wrong.
Understand that this calf was still moving around, just lethargic, not spunky, not normal calf poo.
Understand as well, this was during the stage that coronovirus or roto virus would set in. E coli is a different ball of wax in a newborn.

Some to the cheap tricks we implemented was
1. separate the cows that calved from those that do not
2. give way more space to the pairs
3. when scours does strike, move the pairs way from the area, rebed them down. And keep moving them.
For example we have an area we designate the south pasture. It is in excess of 40 acres. There is a paddock that houses the pairs, about 2 acres. We used to have it fenced in, now we took the fence down. We get enough snow that we can push and make a snow fence. We push out the area any how so migh as well make the area work for us.
This area sees no cows from October to March, Neither does the calving area. Once the hint of scours hits, we move the cattle out to the rest of the 40 acres. Each time hubby feeds, he feeds in a clean area. Since we have done this, scours have been minimal. Out of 100 cows last year we treated 1
the year before, 2 or 3. It has taken time to impliment but it has saved us big.
4. When we treat scours, they are last on the list to do unless the calf if real sick. When we do treat, we clean our hands, change our coveralls, clean our boots. Last thing you want is to pass it on to a newborn you just assisted.
5. If we have to tube calves, we carry a 4litre jug (old milk jug) around with a 10% bleach solution...200ppm. We put the bolus guns in there an the drench tube in there as well...when we were multiple treating....to clean equipment

Some of the things we have on hand in case
1. Sulfa boluses ie calf span...follow directions
2. Sulfa injectable such as trivetrin or trimidox...follow directions
3 Non steriod anti inflamatory like anafin, flunizine (sp)
4. Clean drench bag
5. eloctrolytes
6. Vet on speed dial if treatment showed no sign of improvement in 24 hours.
7. Probiotics

most scours are viral, so treating is more so to prevent secondary infections.

Hope this helps, maybe...
oh yeah we are using a new scour vaccine this year, Scourbos 9 (i think) The idea is that you do not have to redo after 8 week, the pregnant cows, and you do earlier to minimize stress on the cow. We did it, just as they entered the last trimester. So we start calving March 13, our window to vaccinate is Jan 5 to 17th and this is the yearly booster

 

[randiliana]

Great post RR, and good timing.

As far as prevention everything written so far is good stuff. We don't have a huge scour problem here. Usually only 3-5/100+ per year. But we have had ones that hit them hard, and fast. If a calf is up and around, usually just antibiotics will do. If they are a little off, laying around, really looking bad we dose with electrolytes. I figure if I can catch them by myself, then they can use the electrolytes, if I can't they aren't that bad, yet, and we just keep a close eye on them. Sometimes we check 2-3 times a day.

As far as treating really sick calves, I have found that less is more. That is smaller more frequent doses of electrolytes seem to work better than one large dose.

How many have experienced the very sick calf that they gave the single 2L dose of electrolytes to. A couple hours later you go out and if you press on his stomach and hear all the liquid sloshing around. At this point, they are either dead, or darn near dead.

My theory on that is that these calves stomachs are not working well, and that large dose of electrolytes is just too much and shuts the system down.

Here is the regimine that I use on those very sick and even downer calves.

First, I divide the electrolyte powder up into 3-4 equal parts ( I don't mix it up ahead of time). Instead of dosing with 2L I want to dose with about 500ml. It requires an extra bit of work on my part, but I have saved some awfully sick calves.

Then I will feed the calf 500 ml every 2-3 hours.

After the first packet is gone, I always feed the calf a small feed of milk or colostrum, depending on the age.

I try to keep all feeds around that 500 ml size.

Then, I will alternate the electrolyte with milk for the next packet. And possibly even another if the calf needs it.

I know that they say you shouldn't/don't need to feed milk when feeding electrolytes, but I like to give milk too. It is what gives the calf energy to get better. The electrolytes keep the calf from dehydrating further, and rehydrate it. I have not lost a calf that I have used this strategy on.

Also, we treat these calves with Sustain III boluses and either Trivetrin or Nuflor.

The last calf I did this with was a twin that didn't get enough colostrum. He was down and out, to the point that I was pretty sure (and DH was positive) I was wasting my time and money. This is the calf that showed me how much those milk feedings were worth. I think I worked with him for 3 days. For the first day of treatment, this calf never sat up, he was laid out flat. But, to our surprise he made it through the night (DH electrolyted him at 3 am when he checked cows). The next morning he was given electrolytes, still out flat, and then given a feed of milk, at the next treatment time he was sitting up. I think he was on his feet the evening of the second day. We dosed him for another day and he came out of it. We sold him to a friend for a replacement calf, and from what I heard he grew out just fine. Another calf we treated the same way (although not quite as sick) was our son's 4H steer last year.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Randi - you are RIGHT ON with your electrolites / milk formulas. It used to be preached to pull a scouring calf completely off milk - elec. only. Now (duh) they figured out that the calf was STARVING to death with elec. only. So it is recommended to alternate.
Good post.

 

[Stocker Steve]

Any experience with the Guardian scour vaccine? We gave one round of shots (first time for the herd) and were told we need to booster.

Also, have long can you go before there is there is value in a third round of vaccination for late calvers?

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

No matter what brand, follow time line for booster - after booster, should be good for 1 year - than give single shot next year. Anything new, like heifers or purchases need the 2 shots first than single yearly.
But, FOLLOW LABEL. If it says 2-4 weeks - don't wait 5 weeks.

 

[randiliana]

Randi - you are RIGHT ON with your electrolites / milk formulas. It used to be preached to pull a scouring calf completely off milk - elec. only. Now (duh) they figured out that the calf was STARVING to death with elec. only. So it is recommended to alternate.
Good post.

Thanks Jeanne, that is what I had figured. Rehydration is great, but most of these calves are pretty young, and don't have much of a reserve built up. Pretty hard to get better when your body has no energy to fight whatever is ailing it.

 

[rockridgecattle]

scour bos 9 is good for 20 weeks, but done earlier. Vets says that should be the only yearly shot needed.
scour guard is 8 weeks. After the booster shot if there are cows still to calve at 8 weeks, do again the preg ones.