Menu
Forums
New posts
Search forums
What's new
New posts
New media
New media comments
New profile posts
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Members
Current visitors
New profile posts
Search profile posts
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles and first posts only
Search titles only
By:
New posts
Search forums
Menu
Log in
Register
Forums
Cattle Boards
Breeds Board
Remember This Bull?
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Help Support CattleToday:
Message
<blockquote data-quote="SPH" data-source="post: 1290918" data-attributes="member: 20580"><p>I do agree that docility issues can be genetic, I'm just stating an opinion when I look at all factors that play into the behavior of an animal and I realize not everyone may agree but it's just 1 person's opinion. I was trying to bring home the point that even genetics that are known for docility issues the environment that cattle are raised in still can contribute to it in some way. I just don't believe that you can accurately predict/quantify docility characteristics with an EPD number and this is coming from someone who values EPDs as one of their tools for selection criteria in our own breeding choices. The problem with trusting EPDs too much is that no only is there a lack of data being reported to increase their accuracies but also how one breeder raises their cattle compared to another can skew that data too. Let's take some of the growth traits for example, you're probably going to get bigger birth weights with cattle that are overfed, you're going to get bigger weaning weights when you creep feed more, and how your cattle is handled could very much influence their docility too. That's why I wouldn't have much faith in a docility EPD because I know what 1 guy thinks is wild another guy might say it isn't that wild at all and can tolerate it which is why I wouldn't trust a docility EPD because there would be such a discrepancy on how animals are scored based on the tolerance level of the breeder and their interpretation of docile.</p><p></p><p>There is always still going to be a visual factor that goes into culling and breeding decisions, just because a cow has a great EPDs for udder structure or milk doesn't mean she is going to have perfect teats or good milk and you can go down the line with all the EPDs and probably pick out instances where a certain bull or cow didn't perform as their EPDs would say they predict. Just like any other measurable trait culling based on structural flaws and tempermant are necessary too and those traits don't always show up on the EPD line so to say just because a sire and dam have great looking docility EPDs the result is going to be a docile calf. I just have a hard time believing in any reliable accuracy in a docility EPD when there are too many environmental factors that can play into how that animal is going to behave, especially when removed from the environment in which is was raised in and taken to a new and unfamilar environment.</p><p></p><p>We're a TPR Hereford breeder so believe me we're all about reporting data on our herd and believe that everyone should be doing it because it would help increase EPD accuracies but it's also just 1 tool to use within your herd managment. There are some bulls at these AI studs that are EPD wonders but are flawed structurally but the AI stud is not focusing on that they are trying to sell you mostly on the great EPDs that bull has even if it might wreck your herd in other ways. Yes I also will admit I am a little biased about the Hereford breed when it comes to docility much like anyone who breeds a certain breed you think your breed is better for 1 reason or another but just like Angus bulls getting a bad reputation for their poor temperment we have to deal with the bad reputation the breed got over the years for prolapses and eye problems whether true or not. Just like any of those issues we're going to cull for it if we pin down genetics that are causing it just like we would if we had a wild cow or bull but sometimes it may just be pure bad luck with that 1 animal. Take that wild heifer I mentioned that we got rid of, we sold her full brother the year before to a commercial breeder who has told us that he is their "gentle giant" and we've had enough calves both by their sire and cow to know neither have docility issues with their progeny so we just chalked that heifer up as a lost cause and moved on.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="SPH, post: 1290918, member: 20580"] I do agree that docility issues can be genetic, I'm just stating an opinion when I look at all factors that play into the behavior of an animal and I realize not everyone may agree but it's just 1 person's opinion. I was trying to bring home the point that even genetics that are known for docility issues the environment that cattle are raised in still can contribute to it in some way. I just don't believe that you can accurately predict/quantify docility characteristics with an EPD number and this is coming from someone who values EPDs as one of their tools for selection criteria in our own breeding choices. The problem with trusting EPDs too much is that no only is there a lack of data being reported to increase their accuracies but also how one breeder raises their cattle compared to another can skew that data too. Let's take some of the growth traits for example, you're probably going to get bigger birth weights with cattle that are overfed, you're going to get bigger weaning weights when you creep feed more, and how your cattle is handled could very much influence their docility too. That's why I wouldn't have much faith in a docility EPD because I know what 1 guy thinks is wild another guy might say it isn't that wild at all and can tolerate it which is why I wouldn't trust a docility EPD because there would be such a discrepancy on how animals are scored based on the tolerance level of the breeder and their interpretation of docile. There is always still going to be a visual factor that goes into culling and breeding decisions, just because a cow has a great EPDs for udder structure or milk doesn't mean she is going to have perfect teats or good milk and you can go down the line with all the EPDs and probably pick out instances where a certain bull or cow didn't perform as their EPDs would say they predict. Just like any other measurable trait culling based on structural flaws and tempermant are necessary too and those traits don't always show up on the EPD line so to say just because a sire and dam have great looking docility EPDs the result is going to be a docile calf. I just have a hard time believing in any reliable accuracy in a docility EPD when there are too many environmental factors that can play into how that animal is going to behave, especially when removed from the environment in which is was raised in and taken to a new and unfamilar environment. We're a TPR Hereford breeder so believe me we're all about reporting data on our herd and believe that everyone should be doing it because it would help increase EPD accuracies but it's also just 1 tool to use within your herd managment. There are some bulls at these AI studs that are EPD wonders but are flawed structurally but the AI stud is not focusing on that they are trying to sell you mostly on the great EPDs that bull has even if it might wreck your herd in other ways. Yes I also will admit I am a little biased about the Hereford breed when it comes to docility much like anyone who breeds a certain breed you think your breed is better for 1 reason or another but just like Angus bulls getting a bad reputation for their poor temperment we have to deal with the bad reputation the breed got over the years for prolapses and eye problems whether true or not. Just like any of those issues we're going to cull for it if we pin down genetics that are causing it just like we would if we had a wild cow or bull but sometimes it may just be pure bad luck with that 1 animal. Take that wild heifer I mentioned that we got rid of, we sold her full brother the year before to a commercial breeder who has told us that he is their "gentle giant" and we've had enough calves both by their sire and cow to know neither have docility issues with their progeny so we just chalked that heifer up as a lost cause and moved on. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Forums
Cattle Boards
Breeds Board
Remember This Bull?
Top