Red Angus

[wtrapp]

Other than color, does anyone know the main difference between Red and Black Angus. I've been told Red has a better disposition; don't know. The Red Angus are pretty but haven't been around them other than to see a few bulls that were for sale back in the fall. Thanks

 

[Baldie Maker]

I've been told the same thing about the docility by my advisor who raises red Angus, Simmental, and Sim Angus. He got burnt on gardens wave; he bought up a bunch of semen and a son right before the epd came out. The Angus association must of thought that they had a problem because they created a docility epd.

 

[BA]

We have both and I would say that our reds are on average better dispositioned when going through chutes, but don't have any trouble with the cows of either breed. We have culled two Angus bulls for disposition - seems they get four years old and think they are pretty tough, our reds don't do that as much. Reds will typically be easier calving and blockier. Easier to get muscle. I think a lot of the reason was some of the BIG black bulls of the 80's and chasing carcass. RA didn't do that much at the time, but a lot of new RA breeders are trying their best to make all the mistakes that the blacks made back in the day.

 

[djinwa]

Black cattle have more problems with heat stress than reds. Here's a few references, and an excerpt:

http://www.stockmangrassfarmer.net/cgi- ... cgi?id=570

http://vetmed.iastate.edu/vdpam/extensi ... eef-cattle

Compared to other animals cattle cannot dissipate their heat load very effectively. Cattle do not sweat effectively and rely on respiration to cool themselves. A compounding factor on top of climatic conditions is the fermentation process within the rumen generates additional heat that cattle need to dissipate. Since cattle do not dissipate heat effectively they accumulate a heat load during the day and dissipate heat at night when it is cooler. During extreme weather conditions with insufficient environmental cooling at night cattle will accumulate heat that they cannot disperse. Therefore, a temperature-humidity index (THI) alone may not predict cattle heat stress because it does not account for accumulated heat load. Another short fall of THI is that it does not account for solar radiation and wind speed which can affect heat load of cattle.

Cattle should not be worked during times of extreme heat and only early in morning when it is hot. Working cattle will elevate their body temperature. Cattle should not wait in processing areas longer than 30 minutes when it is hot. Do not work cattle in the evening even if it has cooled off a little. Cattle’s core temperature peaks 2 hours after peak environmental temperature. It also takes at least 6 hours for cattle to dissipate their heat load. Therefore, if peak temperature occurred at 4:00 pm cattle will not have recovered from that heat load until after 12:00 am and it will be later than that before cattle have fully recovered from the entire days heat load. Feedlots should evaluate cattle daily, especially during July and August, for evidence of heat stress. Special attention should be paid to cattle with increased risk of heat stress including heavy cattle, black cattle and respiratory compromised animals.

Heavy cattle cannot handle heat stress compared to lighter weight cattle. Increased fat deposition prevents cattle from regulating their heat effectively. Solar radiation is a critical component that can lead to death loss from heat stress. Typically, proportionality more black hided cattle die during heat waves then other hide colors. Since cattle rely on respiration as a method to manage heat respiratory function is important. Cattle that had severe respiratory disease early in the feeding period will have decreased ability to regulate their heat load.

 

[Lucky_P]

BaldieMaker,
Your buddy might not really be 'burnt'; he might have a goldmine - time will tell.
I, too bought some Gardens Wave semen before he got a Docility epd - though I knew the potential was there(his sire, Highmark, had a -17 Doc at the time). I've used all that semen, and won't buy any more until I see how his daughters perform - but right now, I really like them, and thus far, I can't tell any difference, disposition-wise, from calves the same age sired by 6I6, NBPT D806, or our cleanup sire(Connealy Focus 188x878) who throws really nice dispositions. In a year or two, if this current crop of Wave heifers don't give me any problems, I'll go back and use him again. High $EN, moderate milk, high Marb, high REA, high $W, high $B - a good combination for making cows for my purposes, even if WW/YW are below breed average - and, he's homozygous for all tenderness gene markers.
My Wave daughters are really nice - but the steers don't look like much right now - but the steers are all out of first-calf heifers, so I expected a little less performance on them from the outset.

AAA is not the only breed association that has developed Docility epds. Seems like the Limousin, and maybe the Gelbvieh folks have also developed one; there may be others - these are all breeds that have had a reputation - whether deserved or not - for temperament issues in some lines, but bad temperament is not limited to Angus and Limousin.

 

[3waycross]

To the best of my knowledge the Gelbvieh folks have NOT developed a docility EPD.

 

[VanC]

To the best of my knowledge the Gelbvieh folks have NOT developed a docility EPD.

Same here. Only breeds I've heard of having docilty epds are Limousin and Angus, but there may be others. As has been said many times, there are crazy ones in every breed, but I've never heard of the Gelbvieh breed as a whole having docility problems.

 

[Lucky_P]

Thanks for the correction.
I've had no first-hand experience with Gelbvieh.
Have a friend in TN that runs about 200 head of Angus cows; he ran Balancer bulls on them ONE year - they were the craziest things he'd ever had in his entire lifetime, when it came time to do anything with them in pen or corral. Sold those bulls and went back to Angus & black Simmental. Of course, the craziness could have come from whatever Angus lines were used in making those Balancers - but he'll never use anything Gelbvieh-influenced again.

 

[3waycross]

Thanks for the correction.
I've had no first-hand experience with Gelbvieh.
Have a friend in TN that runs about 200 head of Angus cows; he ran Balancer bulls on them ONE year - they were the craziest things he'd ever had in his entire lifetime, when it came time to do anything with them in pen or corral. Sold those bulls and went back to Angus & black Simmental. Of course, the craziness could have come from whatever Angus lines were used in making those Balancers - but he'll never use anything Gelbvieh-influenced again.

Thanks for the infomercial. I bet he went out and found the least expensive bulls he could buy. Then blamed a whole breed for him being cheap.

 

[VanC]

Thanks for the correction.
I've had no first-hand experience with Gelbvieh.
Have a friend in TN that runs about 200 head of Angus cows; he ran Balancer bulls on them ONE year - they were the craziest things he'd ever had in his entire lifetime, when it came time to do anything with them in pen or corral. Sold those bulls and went back to Angus & black Simmental. Of course, the craziness could have come from whatever Angus lines were used in making those Balancers - but he'll never use anything Gelbvieh-influenced again.

That's unfortunate. Could have been a number of things that made them crazy, but it just shows how a bad experience with any breed can leave a lasting impression. Not all of it is first hand either. Often people hear of something like that from someone else, who heard it from someone else, etc., and that can also leave an impression. That's why there are folks out there that think all Limousins are crazy, or that all Charolais have calving problems, or that all Herefords prolapse. None of that is true, of course, but they still believe it because of something that happened to them or someone else.

 

[Lucky_P]

Van C. wrote:
"Thanks for the infomercial. I bet he went out and found the least expensive bulls he could buy. Then blamed a whole breed for him being cheap."

Nope, Van, not this guy. He's a progressive cattleman and doesn't scrimp on feed, fertilizer, equipment or breeding stock. I never saw those Balancer bulls, but I'm confident they weren't 'Billy-Bob Specials'.
His Balancer bulls were no problem - but his Balancer-sired calves were wild and crazy as hell, and it sure turned him off on 'em; they were so incredibly different from Angus or Simmental-sired calves out of these same cows in previous years.
I wasn't slamming Balancers or Gelbvieh - If you'll go back and look, I suggested that the temperament issues could well have come from whatever Angus lines were behind those Balancer bulls.

 

[hillsdown]

To the best of my knowledge the Gelbvieh folks have NOT developed a docility EPD.

Same here. Only breeds I've heard of having docilty epds are Limousin and Angus, but there may be others. As has been said many times, there are crazy ones in every breed, but I've never heard of the Gelbvieh breed as a whole having docility problems.

GV's are known for their docile temperament, you get a nut once and a while but as my new sig line says .....

Friends of my parents have raised a " " breed for over 30 years , they switched to GV's after visiting my herd in '09 . temperament was a big reason for them to switch. Their herd was much too unmanageable for the two of them to work themselves, now the wife can do alot by herself.

We worked cattle on Thursday to sort the heavy's to the calving area, my husband kept commenting on how bloody calm my herd is. ;-)

 

[VanC]

Van C. wrote:
"Thanks for the infomercial. I bet he went out and found the least expensive bulls he could buy. Then blamed a whole breed for him being cheap."

Nope, Van, not this guy. He's a progressive cattleman and doesn't scrimp on feed, fertilizer, equipment or breeding stock. I never saw those Balancer bulls, but I'm confident they weren't 'Billy-Bob Specials'.
His Balancer bulls were no problem - but his Balancer-sired calves were wild and crazy as be nice, and it sure turned him off on 'em; they were so incredibly different from Angus or Simmental-sired calves out of these same cows in previous years.
I wasn't slamming Balancers or Gelbvieh - If you'll go back and look, I suggested that the temperament issues could well have come from whatever Angus lines were behind those Balancer bulls.

If you'll go back and look, you'll see that I never said any such thing.

 

[3waycross]

I said it. I don't need anyone else to take a whippin for me!....and I was referring to the statement that he would never touch anything with Gelbvieh influence again.

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

Man up 3way they be nuts in ever breed. Some lines of cattle just don't cross well. One of the gurus down at Express Ranches once said when making limflex to choose your angus lines carefully. Same thing may have happened in this instance.

 

[3waycross]

Man up 3way they be nuts in ever breed. Some lines of cattle just don't cross well. One of the gurus down at Express Ranches once said when making limflex to choose your angus lines carefully. Same thing may have happened in this instance.

It ain't about maning up it's about statements that end up costing people money.

The ONE thing Gelbvieh has always been known for is temperment and posting remarks like that could easily influence a newbie on here that believes everything they read. You notice he didn't say the fella never used anything with angus influence again.. I have seen some goofy balancers and in almost every case they came out of range environments or some not so sane angus. Some nature some nurture but the breed as a whole counts docility as a strength.

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

Ain't gonna cost you any more than it does any body else with any other breed. No breed is immune to having idiots. Gotta remember them Gelbvieh is decendents from cattle the Germans stole from the French. :lol:

 

[3waycross]

Ain't gonna cost you any more than it does any body else with any other breed. No breed is immune to having idiots. Gotta remember them Gelbvieh is decendents from cattle the Germans stole from the French. :lol:

I have no comeback for that whatsoever. :shock: You freakin kill me :lol2: :lol2: :lol2: :lol2: :lol2: :lol2:

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

Cheers :drink: