Ramblings on tradition

[dun]

There are people that keep bringing up tradition as being an important element in the cattle industry when it comes to using bulls vs AI.
Why just restrict tradition to this one element? Should we go back to no vaccinations, raising cattle that aren’t what the consumer today wants, the only antibiotic being penicillin? The days of the open range are gone and have been for generations and won’t return? Shouldn’t we as producers progress and use the methods and technology to improve our products and in the long run hopefully increase the market share for beef? 40 years ago we didn’t worry much about anything but a heavy calf at sale time, and that was a relative thing. A lightweight calf today would have been considered a heavy calf then. Much of the progress we’ve made has been in management but most has been made by the use of improved genetics both in animals and forage/feed.
I personally don’t think that a lot of the progress that the human race has made is real progress, particularly in the societal arena. But I’m unwilling to revert to no electricity, hand pumping water and other elements of a by gone era.
If some one doesn’t wish to use modern methods in the cattle business, so be it. But don’t condemn others for trying to improve their animals using modern techniques and technology.
AI is here to stay, as is ET. I don’t see the significant benefits of ET, but in another 40 years maybe I will.
This whole brouhaha got started because of the recommendations that bulls aren’t required and in many cases aren’t even desirable for the beginner in the industry. If that’s ones opinion, make recommendations to the contrary, but don’t lean on tradition.
The whole deal reminds me of the old saying about the army, “200 years of tradition unmarred by progress”.

 

[redfornow]

Well said, Dun.
For most there is only one way to do things "their way"
if you differ you are wrong.
Sad but true.

MD

 

[ALACOWMAN]

i heard someone say one time that always has stuck in the back of my mind.... my daddy done it this way and thats the way we have always done it... well your daddy was wrong...i love the cowboy way myself but i dont want too make one step foward and two steps back

 

[backhoeboogie]

Dun, Everything you said makes sense. The only thing going against my grain is cloning. It just doesn't seem ethically right to me personally. If cloning is used to bring back animals that are near extinction, I can accept it.

You are absolutely right about calf size. I got tickled looking back over the pics of the State Fair champions. You can see the progress. Some of the "champions" at the turn of the last century would be an embarassment to commercial farmers today. The bar has been raised.

There is also much more information and access thereto. Just consider what is learned in this forum. 10 years ago I wouldn't have been able to pick your brain. Now I can look at every post you have ever made, and I have.

 

[Frankie]

There are people that keep bringing up tradition as being an important element in the cattle industry when it comes to using bulls vs AI.
Why just restrict tradition to this one element? Should we go back to no vaccinations, raising cattle that aren’t what the consumer today wants, the only antibiotic being penicillin? The days of the open range are gone and have been for generations and won’t return? Shouldn’t we as producers progress and use the methods and technology to improve our products and in the long run hopefully increase the market share for beef? 40 years ago we didn’t worry much about anything but a heavy calf at sale time, and that was a relative thing. A lightweight calf today would have been considered a heavy calf then. Much of the progress we’ve made has been in management but most has been made by the use of improved genetics both in animals and forage/feed.
I personally don’t think that a lot of the progress that the human race has made is real progress, particularly in the societal arena. But I’m unwilling to revert to no electricity, hand pumping water and other elements of a by gone era.
If some one doesn’t wish to use modern methods in the cattle business, so be it. But don’t condemn others for trying to improve their animals using modern techniques and technology.
AI is here to stay, as is ET. I don’t see the significant benefits of ET, but in another 40 years maybe I will.
This whole brouhaha got started because of the recommendations that bulls aren’t required and in many cases aren’t even desirable for the beginner in the industry. If that’s ones opinion, make recommendations to the contrary, but don’t lean on tradition.
The whole deal reminds me of the old saying about the army, “200 years of tradition unmarred by progress”.

Feel better now?

 

[Cabo]

Dun, Everything you said makes sense. The only thing going against my grain is cloning. It just doesn't seem ethically right to me personally. If cloning is used to bring back animals that are near extinction, I can accept it.

You are absolutely right about calf size. I got tickled looking back over the pics of the State Fair champions. You can see the progress. Some of the "champions" at the turn of the last century would be an embarassment to commercial farmers today. The bar has been raised.

There is also much more information and access thereto. Just consider what is learned in this forum. 10 years ago I wouldn't have been able to pick your brain. Now I can look at every post you have ever made, and I have.

Seems like the older I get the more resistant I am to change but thankfully, with the help of the knowledgeable folks on this board, it is getting easier to see that without making needed changes the other meat producing industries are going to leave us talking to the neighbor about why we can't make money in beef. It's kinda like driving a horse and buggy down a heavily traveled highway, you have the right to do it but you may get run over in the process.

 

[cfpinz]

Well said, dun.

There is no place in this industry for close-mindedness, that will get you nowhere fast. Keep an open mind and at least listen to what others have to say. You don't have to agree with them or head their suggestions, but you'll never learn anything with your head up your butt.

cfpinz

 

[stocky]

[This whole brouhaha got started because of the recommendations that bulls aren’t required and in many cases aren’t even desirable for the beginner in the industry]

Dun, maybe there are alot of guys who feel that if it is found out that these recommendations turn out to be best for cattle, then their wives or girlfriends might decide it is best in the human population also. Then the guys would be kicked out of the house and have no place to go. So, just to be on the side of tradition, lets keep some bulls around, even if it is just for show.

 

[MillIronQH]

I believe that at one level the traditions need to be taught to the new people coming into the industry. How else are they going to realize or appreciate the progress that's been made. If someone started out today only seeing today's methods is there any reason they would not develop the same "My daddy did it this way" attitude Dun speaks of. We're not getting any younger and the young people that grew up with those traditions are mostly moving to town. Some looking for an easier way to make a living but I believe that the majority go simply because the place they were raised on won't support two or more families any more. Some will come back in time but many more will be trapped by mortgages, college tuitions, etc. Those people will not be here to carry on the traditions or continue the progress of the ones who came before.

Of course the most important traditions are the hardest to teach. At the top of that list is stewardship of the land and the animals on it. In order to teach that to the new people we must also teach the history of the industry. That includes the traditions the industry has given birth to.

No we should not go back to the days of no vaccinations. Again as Dun pointed out the days of the open range is a thing of the past with livestock being raised in smaller and smaller acrages leaving them more open to disease.

As far as bull vs. AI, I fail to see any relationship of either with tradition. AI probably isn't a viable option for the rancher running cattle on 50+ sections but it may well be for the person with 50-250 acres.

The Ag industry is the most diverse business in the world. People and organizations have been trying for many years to create some sort of cookie cutter pattern in it and it isn't and can't happen. Geography, weather and economics control it and always will.

The best thing any of us born to the business can do is leave our differences in the barn and do everything we can to nurture and educate those coming in today. It doesn't matter if they're raising horses, cattle, goats or emus.Z

 

[Dave]

AI doesn't work in my situation so I use a bull. But that bull is the product of AI. Not everyone can use AI for a number of reasons but there is no reason that you can't take advantage of the genetics it provides.
If you work hard and do things to grandpa's standards you will be a success by grandpa's standards. I set my standards just slightly higher than they were in grandpa's day.
Back when I was in school weaning a 400 pound calf was the norm. Now if a cow comes in with a calf under 500 pounds she has a ticket out of here on the next bus.
I agree with you Dun. If you aren't moving forward you are losing ground.
Dave

 

[ROCK-N-W]

I love talking to the old timers and learning about all the things I'm doing wrong & how it was in the old days. Generally I use some of the old ways mixed with new and learn a something new every day. Except how to spell, Cause if the new way ain't a working the old ways will. and since I'm old enough to remember toilets that don't flush and coal burning & wood burning stoves toting water from the well and hand pumping I happen to like some of the new ways. and 500 lb calves at weening also a big plus.
Rocknw

 

[llcupit]

Well said Dun! ;-)

 

[Alice]

I love talking to the old timers and learning about all the things I'm doing wrong & how it was in the old days. Generally I use some of the old ways mixed with new and learn a something new every day. Except how to spell, Cause if the new way ain't a working the old ways will. and since I'm old enough to remember toilets that don't flush and coal burning & wood burning stoves toting water from the well and hand pumping I happen to like some of the new ways. and 500 lb calves at weening also a big plus.
Rocknw

Well said...all of it.

Alice

 

[Jogeephus]

Well said Dun. Each person's situation is different and there are no absolutes or cookbooks out there for making a profit with cattle - everyone's situation is different. For me, the bottom line is the bottom line and I will do whatever my customers want me to do if it will increase my net profit.

 

[TnWI]

Dun, maybe there are alot of guys who feel that if it is found out that these recommendations turn out to be best for cattle, then their wives or girlfriends might decide it is best in the human population also. Then the guys would be kicked out of the house and have no place to go. So, just to be on the side of tradition, lets keep some bulls around, even if it is just for show.

No no no -- it's not the practicing or the making of the baby we have a issue with, it's the carrying of the baby for 9-10 incredibly long, and tiring months, and the work that comes afterword. Now if you found out how the woman could transfer the egg over so that MEN can carry the baby, take care of the baby (breastfeed, change diapers, teach them to eat, talk, walk, and potty train) .... NOW there's something we women might be interested in. Might even make us a little more friendlier ;-)

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Nicely said - and I'm really impressed with HOW MUCH you said. Can't remember you typing that much at one time.
I'm 100% behind progress. Try to take advantage of anything that will help save labor, make healthier cattle, & make more money$$$$$.

 

[dun]

Can't remember you typing that much at one time.

I didn;t. I did it in word over a couple of days in Word then just lumped it in at once.

dun

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Ahh - that explains why the spelling is correct - no "slang" spelling

 

[dun]

Ahh - that explains why the spelling is correct - no "slang" spelling

Puncuation too

dun

 

[backhoeboogie]

Ahh - that explains why the spelling is correct - no "slang" spelling

Puncuation too

dun

dun, Even if your posts were all garbled, I'd read them anyway.