Questions for cattlemen that raise bulls...

[Jdallas]

So these questions pertain primarily to those that use EPDs, expected progeny differences, to buy/sell bulls. But if you have any info relevant to share, feel free to chime in.

How do you track your EPD numbers and how do you submit those numbers to a potential buyer?

 

[double v]

what kind of question are you asking, reg. bulls have papers and current EPD'S if you have a reg. number you go to the breed site and see it. Not getting your question?

 

[Jdallas]

You'll have to bear with me as I learned what EPDs are the other day.

For ranchers that sell bulls, how do they determine the EPDs of their bulls? If a bull is registered and comes with papers detailing EPDs how were those numbers determined?

I assume those numbers have to originate from somewhere.

 

[dun]

EPDs are derived by the association using ancestors, siblings and progeny. If they animal doesn;t have any progeny they just use ancestors and siblings. Each breed association uses their own algorythm for calculating them. The accuracy (acc) ondocates how much the data can be trusted. i or p (depending on the breed registry) indicates that the EPDs are basicly just an average of the parents.

 

[u4411clb]

EPDs are derived by the association using ancestors, siblings and progeny. If the animal doesn't have any progeny they just use ancestors and siblings. Each breed association uses their own algorythm for calculating them. The accuracy (acc) ondocates how much the data can be trusted. i or p (depending on the breed registry) indicates that the EPDs are basicly just an average of the parents.

Exactly just add in the individual bull or cows own performance as well when there is no i in front of the epd.

 

[gizmom]

I would also look at the cow family. What is the production record of the cow that the bull your looking at is,out of. I may not be saying it right but a cow family is a big part of what I look at when picking both AI sires as well as herd sires.

Gizmom

 

[Beef Man]

I would also look at the cow family. What is the production record of the cow that the bull your looking at is,out of. I may not be saying it right but a cow family is a big part of what I look at when picking both AI sires as well as herd sires.

Gizmom

You are absolutelly right about the dam's side and its importance. Any good seed stock producer should know the cow's side of his herd sire's ancestry as well or better than the sire's, after all we are all produceing animals for the future and in nearly everything Mom is very important to overall success. Not to ignore the sire importance but when you lok at that side of the pedigree,notice, how much you look at his dam and granddam's information.

 

[igrowgrass]

EPDs are really only an effective tool, in my opinion, after the bull has sired a decent number of progeny. This gives you an idea of the accuracy of the information. This is something that is good if you are going to use the bull for AI programs or stuff like that. If you're buying a bull from a guy to use as your herd bull or on clean up duty you have to buy a bull from someone that you trust. Look at his daddy, look at his brothers and sisters, look at any heifers or cows that are in the herd that share the same momma. The art of buying bulls is hard. The art of selling good bulls is harder. I wish you luck.

 

[DLD]

In order to calculate those generations of EPD's, the association's require that breeders turn in data at least on those calves they're registering (some like an average on the entire peer group, as well). This data includes birth weights, weaning weights, yearling weights, whether or not assistance was required at birth, whether or not creep feed was used, maybe more stuff I'm not aware of in some breeds. Then the associations calculate EPD's using generations of this data. Most breeders who are trying to sell bulls do weigh their calves at the appropriate times and try to turn in accurate data. There will always be a few that just guess at it, or a dishonest one here and there that alter that data to try to artificially improve the results, so you have to keep in mind that the first word in EPD is estimate. For the most part they are a good indicator of birth weight and growth potential (and carcass potential and whatever else), but nutrition, environment and management are huge factors as well.

EPD's shouldn't be your only consideration in selection, but rather, as others said, a tool. IMO, use them to help you choose once you've considered phenotype. Many breeders who've tried using EPD's as their only criteria for selection find themselves in trouble with great numbered cattle that aren't efficient, or have structural issues, or don't have enough balance and look for their buyers.

Edit to add: When comparing cattle of different breeds, don't forget that EPD's are not equivalent from one breed to the next. You'd need a pretty good understanding of the EPD's of each of the breeds you're comparing in order to compare them fairly.

 

[gizmom]

In order to calculate those generations of EPD's, the association's require that breeders turn in data at least on those calves they're registering (some like an average on the entire peer group, as well). This data includes birth weights, weaning weights, yearling weights, whether or not assistance was required at birth, whether or not creep feed was used, maybe more stuff I'm not aware of in some breeds. Then the associations calculate EPD's using generations of this data. Most breeders who are trying to sell bulls do weigh their calves at the appropriate times and try to turn in accurate data. There will always be a few that just guess at it, or a dishonest one here and there that alter that data to try to artificially improve the results, so you have to keep in mind that the first word in EPD is estimate. For the most part they are a good indicator of birth weight and growth potential (and carcass potential and whatever else), but nutrition, environment and management are huge factors as well.

EPD's shouldn't be your only consideration in selection, but rather, as others said, a tool. IMO, use them to help you choose once you've considered phenotype. Many breeders who've tried using EPD's as their only criteria for selection find themselves in trouble with great numbered cattle that aren't efficient, or have structural issues, or don't have enough balance and look for their buyers.

Edit to add: When comparing cattle of different breeds, don't forget that EPD's are not equivalent from one breed to the next. You'd need a pretty good understanding of the EPD's of each of the breeds you're comparing in order to compare them fairly.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: what DLD said

 

[thommoos]

I still question EPD's in general. I know that there are producers that , well might be complete honest on how that bull grew so fast. (higher EPD), My best indicator is see what is on the ground. There are a lot of producers here that can say yes good bull epd's are correct. This is a good place to learn from a wealth of knowledge.

For instance Gizmom, ran some bull in a bull test, they performed I believe to what the EPD said they would. They were tested on forage test. did real well on the test, and she even posted picts of them. My concern for you would be a relativly unknown Bull with few offspring being promoted by a single source with high EPD's. :2cents: Just a lot to consider. but again this place has a wealth of knowledge.