Question on dehorning........

[CowgirlUpNY]

I'm back.....

OK, our 5 mo. old Brown Swiss was never dehorned. He's got little nubs now and he still thinks I'm his play toy. I'ld like to dehorn him, but not sure what the best method would be at this stage.

Any suggestions would be a great help. It's a little unnerving when he comes trotting up behind me and bumps me. And now he's taught our year old heifer (thankfully she's polled, not sure what she's weighing at) to run to me from the field when I come in with the grain bucket. :shock:

And while I'm here.....can I use a horse weight tape for cows, or do I need a 'cow' weight tape?

 

[Texan]

If he was doing that to me, I'd knock his horns off with a big hammer.

 

[milkmaid]

Probably chopping them off would be the best option at this point. Not sure if you can still burn at that age/size.

You could measure with the horse weight tape to get an accurate heart girth measurement (inches) and then I do have a dairy (and also a beef) weight tape; I can read it and give you an estimation of what the weight is.

 

[rkm]

Little late in the year to chop those horns because of flies.

 

[randiliana]

Little late in the year to chop those horns because of flies.

That is true enough, and I also agree that at this stage that your best option is to cut them off. As to him and your heifer running up and bunting you, horns or not, NOW is the time to STOP that behavior, before you or someone else gets hurt!! Carry a stick with you, and when they come up behind you smack them with it. They need to learn that YOU are NOT a plaything, and that you have boundaries that they can't cross. It will take a few smacks, and you will need to make them count, but in the end you will be MUCH safer!!

 

[Anonymous]

Little late in the year to chop those horns because of flies.

That is true enough, and I also agree that at this stage that your best option is to cut them off. As to him and your heifer running up and bunting you, horns or not, NOW is the time to STOP that behavior, before you or someone else gets hurt!! Carry a stick with you, and when they come up behind you smack them with it. They need to learn that YOU are NOT a plaything, and that you have boundaries that they can't cross. It will take a few smacks, and you will need to make them count, but in the end you will be MUCH safer!!

that's right...you cant let them cattle know how big they are...once they realize they are over 1000 pounds heavier than you...they wont be scared of you anymore...you cant let your cattle be like your friends...they gotta respect you...if they dont then you'll get hurt

 

[CowgirlUpNY]

Thanks for the responses. These are our first 2 cows - not for lack of trying but we didn't have very good luck with bottle babies.

When you say cut them off, I'm assuming there is a tool for that.... I'm sure I've seen it in various catalogs, kind of like a hmmmm, I guess I would say it looks kindof like a bolt cutter. Am I thinking of the right thing?? If so, how do I know where to cut?? It's going to have to wait til Fall if flies are an issue, because we are in our beginning fly season.

On the other issue, would a horse crop work?? or do I need something bigger?? Kindof like talk softly and carry a big stick? Thankfully the heifer knows her boundaries, she just comes a trottin' when I've got the grain bucket in hand, but she keeps her distance.

 

[Texas PaPaw]

Thanks for the responses. These are our first 2 cows - not for lack of trying but we didn't have very good luck with bottle babies.

When you say cut them off, I'm assuming there is a tool for that.... I'm sure I've seen it in various catalogs, kind of like a hmmmm, I guess I would say it looks kindof like a bolt cutter. Am I thinking of the right thing?? If so, how do I know where to cut?? It's going to have to wait til Fall if flies are an issue, because we are in our beginning fly season.

On the other issue, would a horse crop work?? or do I need something bigger?? Kindof like talk softly and carry a big stick? Thankfully the heifer knows her boundaries, she just comes a trottin' when I've got the grain bucket in hand, but
she keeps her distance.

For small horns I use tree trimming loppers. Cut them as close to the head as possible. You can dehorn now. Just keep them sprayed for flies as they need fly control anyway.

As far as the butting goes, a riding crop or anything else that will inflict pain will work. Just whack them across the nose when they butt you. Just a few times & they will get the message.

Good luck & happy trails.

Brock

 

[randiliana]

Thanks for the responses. These are our first 2 cows - not for lack of trying but we didn't have very good luck with bottle babies.

When you say cut them off, I'm assuming there is a tool for that.... I'm sure I've seen it in various catalogs, kind of like a hmmmm, I guess I would say it looks kindof like a bolt cutter. Am I thinking of the right thing?? If so, how do I know where to cut?? It's going to have to wait til Fall if flies are an issue, because we are in our beginning fly season.

On the other issue, would a horse crop work?? or do I need something bigger?? Kindof like talk softly and carry a big stick? Thankfully the heifer knows her boundaries, she just comes a trottin' when I've got the grain bucket in hand, but
she keeps her distance.

The size that they are now, you probably wouldn't need too big of a tool. I would have never thought of using the tree loppers, but I would think that they would work. As for flies, you could put a fly tag in their ear, and that should help alot.

A couple links on how to dehorn

This is a pretty good link, and shows the majority of the various tools.
http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/liv ... 87-038.htm

http://www.agric.nsw.gov.au/reader/beef ... 4.htm#When

http://www.cattletoday.com/archive/2003 ... T285.shtml

A riding crop would work just fine. Just smack them across the nose with it and it should sting pretty good. A few smacks, and they will learn to stay out of your space.

 

[Bez!]

Alright - your first two cows and probably pets - so try this on for size.

You can just then fatten him and send him - horns and all to the butcher - just stay out of his way.

Chopping will be a prob - too big. Scoops work but they are not always the best way for a newbie to start out. As for horse equipment - I stay away from it.

So - you wanna' do this and still be able to catch them up in the yard?

Place the animal in the squeeze.

Rope the nose and pull it off to the side - that will cause the head to naturally be placed in the correct position for the procedure I am about to explain.

Trim the long hair around the base of the horn with a pair of scissors or a clipper. This is the horn that is now sticking up in the air.

Now, using the wire saw you purchased at your local feed store / vet supplies store - saw it off. Ask them for it - they will know what it is. The directions on using are usually written on a piece of paper in the boxand easily followed. Be sure to get close to the head and start sawing. These wire saws are cheap like borscht - so do not worry about the cost - the last one I bought came to a total of almost 4 bucks - handles and all.

The closer to the head the better. If you cut the horn off too long, it is very difficult to get the bleeding to stop - even if you burn it. There are physical reasons for this that I will not go into, so just trust me on this.

When you are finished - you may have a hole through the top of the head that leads into the sinus - for the moment do not worry about that.

Using a pair of tweezers or a hemostat, hunt around the edge of the cut area - when you dig a bit - you will find the ends of small veins - grab them and pull them out - this will stop almost all of the bleeding. If you look closely you WILL find them. There will be a fair amount of bleeding initially which is why I pull out the small veins. Takes only a few seconds to do.

Now that you have completed this operation, you can take a burner - which you just happen to have handy - and rub it around the cut edges of the operation turn the skin black and cripsy - keep the burner moving so you do not fry the head. Make sure you also burn the cut edges of the horn to kill it. It can be a bit smokey when you do this - suck it up if you do not like the smell, because it really does not last long.

Now it is time to turn the head over and do the other side.

In all honesty I usually cut them both off - pull the veins and then let the head lose - and then burn both sides.

Do not be surprised if the animal goes down - just get on with it.

If you want to make it painless you can always inject about 8 cc's of lidocaine around the base of each horn - several locations - about 2 cc's per shot. Keeps them quiet and they will simply stand there while the operation is being completed.

Now for the sinus hole.

All I do is puncture the membrane and leave it. The hole closes in about a month.

I generally give the "keepers" a shot of Pen LA in event of infection.

Give them a good shot of fly repellant and allow them to find a nice dark spot to sulk for a few days. I just throw ours in the bush. But you may want to put them in a barn.

Flies can be a prob, but this procedure keeps the blood down to a minimum and therefore reduces the fly attractions. Believe me we get lots of them here - so pick a time when the weather looks like it will be cloudy and cool for a few days.

If all else fails, call the vet and have him or a neighbour do it - for the newbie who has never been here, that is probably the best way. Watch and learn - then you can do it on your own the next time.

Using the above procedure - not including the lidocaine, I would estimate I could do them both in under 6 minutes total time - you will probably take at least 30 due to inexperience and timidity. No offense please - just being realistic.

A straight gouge and scoop should be done when the horns are about one inch long - fast - easy and a bit bloody. I would probably not go this route with yours.

Do not - repeat - do not use a power saw - it makes them totally crazy!

Any more questions give me a shout.

Bez!

 

[Bez!]

I'm back.....

OK, our 5 mo. old Brown Swiss was never dehorned. He's got little nubs now and he still thinks I'm his play toy. I'ld like to dehorn him, but not sure what the best method would be at this stage.

Any suggestions would be a great help. It's a little unnerving when he comes trotting up behind me and bumps me. And now he's taught our year old heifer (thankfully she's polled, not sure what she's weighing at) to run to me from the field when I come in with the grain bucket. :shock:

And while I'm here.....can I use a horse weight tape for cows, or do I need a 'cow' weight tape?

On re-reading:

First - horse stuff is for horses - cow stuff is for cows.

Second - you wanna' keep that little S.O.B. in line?

Take a fibre glass stock cane out with you - and using both hands - pound him square between the eyes. Use the handle end - it hits harder.

Do this every time he tries to run you. EVRY TIME. I guarantee he will stop. I also guarantee he will keep coming to the pail - just not as fast or as aggressive.

I actually use an oak fish bat - but I suspect you would not do that.

You have to be the dominant one - cows are tough and can take a hard hit. You cannot likely hit this thing hard enough to hurt him much - but you MUST take control of the situation.

Sooner the better.

Bez!

 

[milkmaid]

Great posts Bez -- I will note, however, that you go to a lot more effort than I do. :lol: 8) I just chop 'em off and let 'em go. No burning, no hunting for the veins, no preventive shot of Penn. Just stuff a cotton ball in that hole for the big calves, sprinkle on some blood-stop powder (although I don't think either really does anything!) and turn them loose.

I usually try to do mine as little calves with paste, or else chop them off on calves under ~5 months. I've seen them cut off yearlings and older without too much trouble, but I prefer to do the job when they're small.

Interesting that you mention flies. I hadn't really thought about them - been lucky so far - we tend to worry a bit more about those freshly dehorned calves getting rained on. So far I haven't had a problem, but boss told me he's had yearlings that got out in the rain and it started a severe sinus infection - killed them.

So I try to plan my dehorning for a day when the forecast is several days of good weather.

 

[jcarkie]

if i can make a suggestion i take mine to the vet for one head it is safer and cheaper to me. they do mine for about $5 each to dehorn. i do mine when they are little. i agree with randi horns or no horns you better become dominant in your herd or you are going to get hurt.

 

[Running Arrow Bill]

I'm back.....

OK, our 5 mo. old Brown Swiss was never dehorned. He's got little nubs now and he still thinks I'm his play toy. I'ld like to dehorn him, but not sure what the best method would be at this stage.

Any suggestions would be a great help. It's a little unnerving when he comes trotting up behind me and bumps me. And now he's taught our year old heifer (thankfully she's polled, not sure what she's weighing at) to run to me from the field when I come in with the grain bucket. :shock:

And while I'm here.....can I use a horse weight tape for cows, or do I need a 'cow' weight tape?

"Many" of the others on this board probably won't agree with me. Anyhoo...for a "newbee" my sincere suggestion is to take the animal to the Vet and let him/her do the de-horning. Too many problems can occur if you don't know what you're doing and/or otherwise do it wrong. Excessive bleeding, infections, fly/grub problems, etc.

Obviously us "Longhorn Breeders" don't get into de-horning. However, my comments are based on common sense, safety for you and the animal. Why take chances and risk problems if you are not "old hat" at de-horning? Vet won't charge that much and you'll have peace of mind...priceless!

;-)

 

[CowgirlUpNY]

Thank you all for the great advice!! I'm not that timid, but as a newbie I am some - although I do probably try more things than most newbies because I work (or did before I had my daughter) for a horse vet.

After mulling it over some more, I'll more than likely find an old farmer with experience as I'm the type of person that likes to see it done first.

I'm dominate with the goat herd, and with the horses, now to get my young cow under control. Not to say that he's out of control, but he does think he's a big dog. :roll:

Thanks much!!!

 

[Carhartt_Hunny1]

Wow! Good information here. Will have to remember this in case I have to do this later. I should probably just make a note of the topic instead, easier to remember. :roll:

 

[Bama]

Bez probally has the better plan. I can see where it has advantages. I do pretty much as milkmaid. Over the years I have used handsaws, hacksaws, pruning saws etc.. I agree with Bez also don't try a power saw. A cordless saws all will work however. Not reccommended though. The best one I have found is the one Bez is talking about. Its quick as easy. I probally sould do as Bez and pull and burn, but I just saw, stuff, and turn loose. Expect some blood to squirt and don't wear your best clothes.

 

[Bez!]

Bez probally has the better plan. I can see where it has advantages. I do pretty much as milkmaid. Over the years I have used handsaws, hacksaws, pruning saws etc.. I agree with Bez also don't try a power saw. A cordless saws all will work however. Not reccommended though. The best one I have found is the one Bez is talking about. Its quick as easy. I probally sould do as Bez and pull and burn, but I just saw, stuff, and turn loose. Expect some blood to squirt and don't wear your best clothes.

Bama - Do it my way all day - you can run a lot through the chute - and none will likely get sick.

Remember the bigger they are the more important technique is. The little guys are easy - it is the big ones you gotta' do right.

Throw them out on pasture when you are done - remember - things are done this way to reduce the set back.

Just knocking them off like some folks talk about - I can do that as well - sets them back more than a day or two. It is a money game. A few pounds times a couple hundred head times four days.

If I placed 500 / 1000 / 2000 bucks on the ground outside your front door - would you stoop and pick it up?

No difference here either.

The more it hurts them and the longer you take to do it - the more money you lose.

I catch folks using ANY power tools when I am the lead hand - I tend to throw them AND the tools in the water trough if they will not put them away when I politely ask. I only ask once. This is one area when speed can actually cost you money.

Quiet is best as anyone who works animals will know.

Lazy, unprofessional and highly unethical in my mind. Yup - you who disagree can take a long hike.

I am big enough to do it. Last person to try was as big as me - I took him down with a cane to his legs first. That REALLY surprized him. Hurt him pretty bad as well.

Only a couple of years ago. At 49 then he thought of me as an old man - which in fact I am.

He went in the tub along with his tools.

When I am not the lead hand and the tools come out I tend to leave - right quick.

Just because they are cattle does not mean they need to be treated like schitzen. I can do it fast, humane and fairly bloodless - and generally speaking - unless you have really good infrastructure and an excellent catch crew - the folks running cattle up the chute for me will never be kept waiting for much longer than it takes for them to catch their breather

Not burning like you mentioned is not that big a deal, but it will really prevent a lot of possible complications.



Note**

Bama - most comments above addressed to general population - not you specifically.


To all who are stuck reading my lecture**

In the end it is a money game - do little harm and they recover faster - then they start gaining again. A delay of one day costs you - are you ready to give up a days gain?

How about losing a weeks gain from someone who does a lousy job?

14 pounds min gain on grass for one week times how many head? It adds up fast.

My personal thoughts have swiped the direction of this thread - as usual. Apologies to all.

Have a good one,

Bez!

 

[mnmtranching]

I don't have horns on my ranch, but my brother next door still has lots of horns.

He swears by his methood. Either saws or clips depending on size. Takes a piece of poly plastic about 4" sq, coats it with silicone and presses it tightly to the bloody stub. It helps prevent infection, keeps flies off, and stops the bleeding 8)

mnmt

 

[CowgirlUpNY]

Bez, sure wish you were close!! Sounds like I could learn A LOT from you!!