Progressive ataxia

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TwoByrdsMG

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Seems like there is a dirty little secret about PA... all I need to know is which CH AI bulls have tested free and which are known carriers.

Does anyone know how to track down which bulls have been tested or how to narrow down the AI list? We are planning to test all of our cows and now calves. Crappy that we learn about this after making some big investments in embryos and cows.

My intent is breed improvement. I have no intent to sell calves with genetic defects which is why we don't line breed closely either. Weird stuff like this pops up.
 
Yep I saw that article too. It really doesn't put in how horrible it is for the cow. A friend of mine has had two high dollar heifers that were symptomatic. One was euthanized without being tested and the other is getting samples shipped to be tested.
 
Yep I saw that article too. It really doesn't put in how horrible it is for the cow. A friend of mine has had two high dollar heifers that were symptomatic. One was euthanized without being tested and the other is getting samples shipped to be tested.
Yes those kinds of things are bad, both for the animal and the owners.
I don't know anything about that condition, it's been 30 years since I had Charolais, and didn't know of it then. It evidently was around back then though.
Since being involved with Angus, I've had potential carriers of NH, AM, and currently have a DD carrier. Just running as commercials now and not registering so I sell her calves as feeders, and don't retain anything from her.
 
13% of Charolais are carriers and traces to a popular influential A.I. sire born in 1964.
But the article doesn't name the bull. $25 to test for it available since 2018
guess it would decrease testing sales if they named the bull. :(
At 13% random mating of Charolais to Charolais 1 in 15 calves would have it.

Further investigation: First confirmed in 1972 in England and has spread worldwide
since then. Charolais Assocation website has no mention of any genetic defects,
but does supply updated genetic evaluations EPDs 6 times per year.
 
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Managing recessive defects is no big deal in this day and age. It is best to be aware of it but not alarmed. As long as you know the status of the sire and dam you obviously don't use a carrier sire and the females gradually get moved to the commercial or cull herd. Doesn't mean you can't keep a heifer from a carrier cow if it tests as a non carrier. This is where Angus are very good, the genetic status of bulls and cows is there for all to see.

Ken
 
Managing recessive defects is no big deal in this day and age. It is best to be aware of it but not alarmed. As long as you know the status of the sire and dam....
BUT if breed association doesn't collect and release data on known carriers,
then what? Bull studs can't mention what they don't know.
So far my online search has turned up no known carriers, even though 13% are.
 
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My opinion is that breeding animals that carry lethal defect genes is a disservice to the breed and the industry unless every calf is either sent to slaughter or tested negative for the defect prior to being retained. I have seen purebred breeder sales where animals were sold that had tested positive. Or sold without testing. Some of those animals end up in commercial herds passing those defective genes without any testing and then affected calves show up. That gives the breed a bad reputation - even if it is only the perceived breed.

Responsible breeds should be working to identify genetic defects, trace them back to the source animals, publish the findings and develop policies to weed the defects out or at least minimize the effects.
 
I agree completely. There is no published list of AI sires or testing status. The only reason that I know this now is a phone call with the Vice President of the AICA. He said he's had more phone calls about PA in the last 48 hrs than all year (there's social media for you).

Per the VP- I can request the testing info from AICA (for a fee) for any donor dam and AI sire. They are also currently subsidizing any animals tested within a herd currently for this test (but I will still have to pay for most of it). It is in the works to have the data published on the AICA website but they have to be careful about how they release the data since several high dollar bulls have already tested positive as carriers. Those bulls all have 1000+ progeny registered so far. He confirmed that most of the bulls that I have calves from or embryos from already have the testing done and are carriers.

I am having the donors tested since I'm assuming all the bulls are carriers. Also having all my females tested. What a mess.
 
I am surprised that the Charolais breed makes it that difficult to identify a carrier. It appears they care little for the commercial producer. I must give credit to American Angus when it comes to serious defects. AAA does not allow the registration of bulls that have a known carrier of a serious defect in their pedigree unless that bull has tested free of the defect. That is true, even if the known carrier is many generations removed. Cows can be registered, but there potential carrier status will be noted on their pedigree. Anyone can go to the AAA website and search under Management/Performance Measures/Animal Search and see any registered bulls pedigree, EPDs and status as a potential carrier of a known defect. It of course doesn't protect you from an incorrect pedigree, which is why I do a defect test on all outside bulls brought into my Angus herd. I also tested all potential carrier cows and I don't keep any carriers as replacements. With AAA, nothing is hidden away and there is no charge to see that information. I assumed most breeds were that way, and I am shocked to find that a well known breed with a serious defect, identified at least as long ago as the 70's, has done nothing to control it.

I had actually been thinking about using a Charolais on my some of my Angus cows to produce some terminal calves, but there is no way I will support a breed that cares so little for their customers, even though PA is of almost no risk for terminal calves.

I don't agree with TwoByrds statement about not line breeding because "Weird stuff like this pops up". It seems to me they are implying that inbreeding and line breeding can cause defects. That is untrue. Inbreeding is just a way of finding the problems caused by recessive genes that remain hidden until they finally are revealed when two carriers are mated. When two carriers are mated 25% of their calves will have the defect, half will be carriers and only 25% will be non carriers. Finding a defect carrier will happen much faster with inbreeding. You can find the good, the bad, and the inconsequential traits in a pedigree with some intensive inbreeding. It can give you a more uniform herd, which may be a good thing or a bad thing, depending on your choices. I actually do some purposeful line breeding of my best cows and it has been a positive thing. I have been fortunate to not discover any hidden defects and have gotten some really good cows from it.

There really is no a faster way to find problems, then to inbreed. Tests only reveal the defects we already know about and have developed a test for. Those defects were usually revealed when a bull has been immensely popular and was heavily used. Eventually his name appears in many pedigrees and the chances of two carriers being mated increases. Calves with defects begin to appear, the search for the source starts, and usually a common ancestor is found. At the same time a genetic test is developed and now perhaps thousands of potential carriers are identified and will need testing. This could likely have been prevented had those popular bulls been bred back to a large group of daughters, and any problems identified sooner. This would require at least 4-5 years data reported honestly by the bulls owners. I admit I have little confidence that someone with that large of an investment would be willing to sacrifice his own finances for the sake of the breed. I think that would be a very difficult decision for anyone. Easier to avoid inbreeding and not take the chance of finding something. The problems in the Charolais breed might mean it is so prevalent in the breed that even if you avoid breeding up close, there are no guarantees you are not breeding Carrier to Carrier. If I were TwoByrds I would test all of my cows and insist that any bulls I use has tested free of PA. I would only retain daughters that also test free. It will take time, but you will eventually have a herd that is free of PA and I would then promote it as such.
 
@Katpau, hello sort of neighbor.

Linebreeding if it works and inbreeding if it doesn't right?

Every female on my place is getting tested with the intent to eliminate any carrier females through culling (not resale).

And I'm paying to have a few bulls tested. I'm not one to turn a blind eye to a genetic mutation that can cause issues like this.

I'm hoping that AICA will follow a similar method (to what AAA does) of identifying carriers and animals that have tested free.
 
Per the VP- I can request the testing info from AICA (for a fee) for any donor dam and AI sire. They are also currently subsidizing any animals tested within a herd currently for this test (but I will still have to pay for most of it). It is in the works to have the data published on the AICA website but they have to be careful about how they release the data since several high dollar bulls have already tested positive as carriers. Those bulls all have 1000+ progeny registered so far. He confirmed that most of the bulls that I have calves from or embryos from already have the testing done and are carriers.
So, the breed association ignored the problem for many years and now have many high dollar defect carrier bulls with 1000+ progeny registered. They need to "be careful about how they release the data" since so many bulls carry the defect. How could a group of people be so stupid to not see how this 50+ year old problem was going to play out while they burrowed their head in the sand. Heads need to roll on this issue. Reminds me of the national debt. Ignore the problem while the problem just grows and grows until it is unmanageable.

I looked at the AICA website and no mention of the issue. I thought I would search the website for info on the issue. Best I can tell, there is no search function on their website. What the heck? I also find no info on the issue on the UK or French Charolais websites. Looks like there could be heck to pay now for ignoring the issue for so long. Hard to believe. I double checked that it is not April's Fool Day.
 
Honesty USED to be the best policy. Some flowery words for AAA being progressive in a previous post over defects. They had to be drug into it by outside research to accept the need to deal with the newer ones. And their efforts have been less than pure in removing with the issue. That issue, for me, showed a lack of character in some of the leadership from conversations I had prior to their decisions. A breed association is a small government and has the same atrophy and decline we see in all governments if personal preference is tolerated.
 
So, the breed association ignored the problem for many years and now have many high dollar defect carrier bulls with 1000+ progeny registered. They need to "be careful about how they release the data" since so many bulls carry the defect. How could a group of people be so stupid to not see how this 50+ year old problem was going to play out while they burrowed their head in the sand. Heads need to roll on this issue. Reminds me of the national debt. Ignore the problem while the problem just grows and grows until it is unmanageable.

I looked at the AICA website and no mention of the issue. I thought I would search the website for info on the issue. Best I can tell, there is no search function on their website. What the heck? I also find no info on the issue on the UK or French Charolais websites. Looks like there could be heck to pay now for ignoring the issue for so long. Hard to believe. I double checked that it is not April's Fool Day.
Actually the UK and French Charolais websites have the most information on PA. June 2021 change:
"
1661437690671.png"

 
@Katpau, hello sort of neighbor.

Linebreeding if it works and inbreeding if it doesn't right?

Every female on my place is getting tested with the intent to eliminate any carrier females through culling (not resale).

And I'm paying to have a few bulls tested. I'm not one to turn a blind eye to a genetic mutation that can cause issues like this.

I'm hoping that AICA will follow a similar method (to what AAA does) of identifying carriers and animals that have tested free.
Good for you. In my opinion, you are doing the right thing. It seems to me like there should be demand for bulls from a clean herd.
If I was you, I would not cull the carriers however. You can breed them to another breed for hybrid vigor and sell the calves for beef. Or you can breed them to a clean Charolais, and only retain the daughters that test clean.

I did not cull any of my carrier cows. Since I am mostly a commercial herd, I just bred them all to a clean bull, and sold their calves with the rest of the stocker calves. If I had a female from those crosses that I decided I wanted as a replacement, I would test her first. I never sell anything that could be a carrier to someone who is planning to use them for breeding. When I had a request for heifers and the person chose a potential carrier, I tested the heifer first, at my own expense. If the heifer was a carrier, they had the option of choosing a different heifer or not buying anything. At this time I have no potential carriers left in the herd. They have all aged out or been culled for another reason. That can change the next time a defect is identified.

Linebreeding to me, would be when the related relatives are several generations removed. I suppose we might say all purebred registries are the result of line breeding, although I seldom see anyone calling it that. For example, you will see many of the same bulls in most Angus pedigrees. I expect this is true in most breeds. There are a few animals in every breed that have been very influential. When you look back in a pedigree you will likely find many of these same animals in multiple lines of the pedigree. When someone says they line bred, it probably means they intentionally included a desirable animal several times in the pedigree within the first three or four generations. When I say inbreeding, I am referring to animals that have the same animal in the first one or two generations, such as daughter to father, or mother to son, or perhaps sister to brother etc.

I have been through the testing process to get rid of possible carriers in my Angus herd several times now. I have tested every bull I use her for all identified defects. I refuse to use an AI bull that has not been tested, even if his pedigree says he is clean. I have also tested all foundation cows for every known defect, whether or not her pedigree indicated she might be a potential carrier. All of my replacements receive a DNA profile once they have raised their first calf. Those profiles include a check for accurate parentage, so since both parents have been verified clean, no further tests are required. With AAA these tests are all quite reasonable, and if you have sent in DNA in the past, it is still on file with AAA, so any further defects can be checked without needing to collect more samples. This was a blessing for me, because I had DNA on file for cows that were long gone from the herd, and testing them meant I did not need to test their ancestors.
 
Progressive Ataxia- I never heard of it. I thought this was a discussion about Liberal LooLoos staggering when they walked. This is what my tailgate says - Dems Gone So Far Left They Fell Off World
 
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Good for you. In my opinion, you are doing the right thing. It seems to me like there should be demand for bulls from a clean herd.
If I was you, I would not cull the carriers however. You can breed them to another breed for hybrid vigor and sell the calves for beef. Or you can breed them to a clean Charolais, and only retain the daughters that test clean.

I did not cull any of my carrier cows. Since I am mostly a commercial herd, I just bred them all to a clean bull, and sold their calves with the rest of the stocker calves. If I had a female from those crosses that I decided I wanted as a replacement, I would test her first. I never sell anything that could be a carrier to someone who is planning to use them for breeding. When I had a request for heifers and the person chose a potential carrier, I tested the heifer first, at my own expense. If the heifer was a carrier, they had the option of choosing a different heifer or not buying anything. At this time I have no potential carriers left in the herd. They have all aged out or been culled for another reason. That can change the next time a defect is identified.

Linebreeding to me, would be when the related relatives are several generations removed. I suppose we might say all purebred registries are the result of line breeding, although I seldom see anyone calling it that. For example, you will see many of the same bulls in most Angus pedigrees. I expect this is true in most breeds. There are a few animals in every breed that have been very influential. When you look back in a pedigree you will likely find many of these same animals in multiple lines of the pedigree. When someone says they line bred, it probably means they intentionally included a desirable animal several times in the pedigree within the first three or four generations. When I say inbreeding, I am referring to animals that have the same animal in the first one or two generations, such as daughter to father, or mother to son, or perhaps sister to brother etc.

I have been through the testing process to get rid of possible carriers in my Angus herd several times now. I have tested every bull I use her for all identified defects. I refuse to use an AI bull that has not been tested, even if his pedigree says he is clean. I have also tested all foundation cows for every known defect, whether or not her pedigree indicated she might be a potential carrier. All of my replacements receive a DNA profile once they have raised their first calf. Those profiles include a check for accurate parentage, so since both parents have been verified clean, no further tests are required. With AAA these tests are all quite reasonable, and if you have sent in DNA in the past, it is still on file with AAA, so any further defects can be checked without needing to collect more samples. This was a blessing for me, because I had DNA on file for cows that were long gone from the herd, and testing them meant I did not need to test their ancestors.
That is basically how I have dealt with the defects. I manoeuvre away from the defect. There is no need to instantlly purge every carrier from your herd in case others catch it from them. A very good cow that showed up as a carrier you may want to keep in the seedstock herd to obtain heifers that test clear as a replacement, even flush her. I even bought two cows that were AM carriers back in the day. I would not have been able to afford them otherwise as they were top shelf cows. One showed up +ve for NH a little down the track so was hard to get a clear one from her but the other I had a good run of success with and got a few clear heifers. I think the discovery of a new defect is more devastating to a breeder just starting out with foundation cows than in an established herd. I have a problem deciding which heifers to keep each year so there are plenty of options. I would not hesitate to sell a carrier heifer to a commercial breeder as long as they bought registered bulls with known status for their herd and were aware of what they are buying. It is the unregistered unpedigreed bulls that pose the greatest risk.

Ken
 

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