Prepotency

[KNERSIE]

I know the theory behind why linebred bulls are supposed to be more prepotent, but why do you often get a non linebred bull that is extremely prepotent to the point where even a novice and go and pick his calves out of a larger group of calves sired by multiple sires?

I have a theory of my own as to why, but would like to hear others' opinions first.

 

[alexfarms]

Most likely, occasionally, homozygosity for desirable traits will occur without linebreeding. The hangover that will follow is that other undesirable traits may be hidden in the prepotent animal and heavy use of the individual will spread the trait far and near before it is revealed, most likely through linebreeding. Then, a certain element of the industry will blame the revelation of the undesirable trait on linebreeding, whle in fact the detection and removal of the undesirable traits could have been dealt with earlier had linebreeding been practiced in the formation of the stock that produced the prepotent animal. An analogy might be the old biblical parable about the man who built his house on a solid foundation. It is alot easier said than done.

 

[Herefords.US]

Most likely, occasionally, homozygosity for desirable traits will occur without linebreeding. The hangover that will follow is that other undesirable traits may be hidden in the prepotent animal and heavy use of the individual will spread the trait far and near before it is revealed, most likely through linebreeding. Then, a certain element of the industry will blame the revelation of the undesirable trait on linebreeding, whle in fact the detection and removal of the undesirable traits could have been dealt with earlier had linebreeding been practiced in the formation of the stock that produced the prepotent animal. An analogy might be the old biblical parable about the man who built his house on a solid foundation. It is alot easier said than done.

What John said! :nod: :nod:

George

 

[dun]

Most likely, occasionally, homozygosity for desirable traits will occur without linebreeding. The hangover that will follow is that other undesirable traits may be hidden in the prepotent animal and heavy use of the individual will spread the trait far and near before it is revealed, most likely through linebreeding. Then, a certain element of the industry will blame the revelation of the undesirable trait on linebreeding, whle in fact the detection and removal of the undesirable traits could have been dealt with earlier had linebreeding been practiced in the formation of the stock that produced the prepotent animal. An analogy might be the old biblical parable about the man who built his house on a solid foundation. It is alot easier said than done.

What John said! :nod: :nod:

George

In the words of whoever467 "Ditto"

 

[KNERSIE]

Before everyone gets too excited about all the dittos, explain to me why bulls out of a certain, mostly non linebred herd, seems to all be more prepotent than the run of the mill outcross bull and sire more consistantly their own type even when used on a variety of cow types.

 

[alexfarms]

Before everyone gets too excited about all the dittos, explain to me why bulls out of a certain, mostly non linebred herd, seems to all be more prepotent than the run of the mill outcross bull and sire more consistantly their own type even when used on a variety of cow types.

"I have a theory of my own as to why, but would like to hear others' opinions first."

 

[R.N.Reed]

I have wondered the same thing and don't know that I have the answer but I'll toss this out.I think people need to start looking farther back in the pedigree's.Some of these genetic defect carriers are being traced back through 1 slender thread 6 or 7 generations to th first known carrier.If you looked at the first three generations of this years Derby winner you would think he was an outcross on an outcross on an outcross.Go back 6,7,and 8 generations and you find War Admiral and Latroine laced throughout his pedigree.

 

[dun]

Before everyone gets too excited about all the dittos, explain to me why bulls out of a certain, mostly non linebred herd, seems to all be more prepotent than the run of the mill outcross bull and sire more consistantly their own type even when used on a variety of cow types.

I've seen it, can't explain it, just a good geentic nick or the luck of the draw.

 

[SRBeef]

Is this related to the idea that some sires produce offspring that are BETTER than they are even from average cows?

I think the point brought up above about looking several generations deep in the pedigree rather than just one is part of it. Not an expert but does jive with what I have seen so far in my limited experience.

Jim

 

[KNERSIE]

Is this related to the idea that some sires produce offspring that are BETTER than they are even from average cows?

I think the point brought up above about looking several generations deep in the pedigree rather than just one is part of it. Not an expert but does jive with what I have seen so far in my limited experience.

Jim

According to my understanding of the term its the sire's ability to stamp his offspring with his characteristics (whether it be good or bad)

My theory is that older herds where they have established a certain type there really isn't as much variety in type so the whole herd or the whole selection process leaves less room for variety and thus a better chance of a bull breeding true. That as well as in the case of older herds there are usually a few very influential families and often these families intertwine and in the larger picture there is a form of closer breeding than would typically be the case of outcrossing in herds where there hasn't been the chance for the influential families to rise to the top.

 

[Hereford76]

i'd say you have to give mother nature some credit. think about it, if a species existance was completely dependant on man's selection pressures i think alot would be extinct. call it genetic instinct that always wants to surface. mother nature finds a way even when man does his best to supress her.

 

[alexfarms]

Is this related to the idea that some sires produce offspring that are BETTER than they are even from average cows?

I think the point brought up above about looking several generations deep in the pedigree rather than just one is part of it. Not an expert but does jive with what I have seen so far in my limited experience.

Jim

According to my understanding of the term its the sire's ability to stamp his offspring with his characteristics (whether it be good or bad)

My theory is that older herds where they have established a certain type there really isn't as much variety in type so the whole herd or the whole selection process leaves less room for variety and thus a better chance of a bull breeding true. That as well as in the case of older herds there are usually a few very influential families and often these families intertwine and in the larger picture there is a form of closer breeding than would typically be the case of outcrossing in herds where there hasn't been the chance for the influential families to rise to the top.

Here's a link on quantitative genetics. Its been a long time since I studied it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantitative_genetics
We tend to talk about genes as being in pairs, but alot of the animal's phenotype is controled by a whole series of genes. Over time they can be changed or set. Say if you are selecting for increased size gradually you will include more high growth genes in the series that inclufences size. Kind of like evolution, like '76 mentioned.

 

[rocket2222]

Here's a link on quantitative genetics. Its been a long time since I studied it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantitative_genetics
We tend to talk about genes as being in pairs, but alot of the animal's phenotype is controled by a whole series of genes. Over time they can be changed or set. Say if you are selecting for increased size gradually you will include more high growth genes in the series that inclufences size. Kind of like evolution, like '76 mentioned.

. We know about qualitative traits and quantitative traits, phenotype and genotype. We have EPD's and DNA profiles, AI and ET, So after looking at the Semex video I posted the other day one more time, where the heck are all the better genetics I have to choose from. :roll:

 

[Herefords.US]

We know about qualitative traits and quantitative traits, phenotype and genotype. We have EPD's and DNA profiles, AI and ET, So after looking at the Semex video I posted the other day one more time, where the heck are all the better genetics I have to choose from. :roll:

If I was you, I'd use that bull that you've got grazing in your pasture heavy...and collect him for insurance and to "share" with others who could use him. :tiphat:

George

 

[Brandonm22]

I think prepotency is the most overrated trait in animal selection. You live and die financially on the averages. A bull has 200 progeny, even if they are all over the board, they still sell by the pound and by the $$$s per pound. If all the progeny look alike, GREAT, but realistically if that doesn't either increase the total pounds sold or somehow increase the $$$s per pound did that really improve anything?????

 

[Hereford76]

I think prepotency is the most overrated trait in animal selection. You live and die financially on the averages. A bull has 200 progeny, even if they are all over the board, they still sell by the pound and by the $$$s per pound. If all the progeny look alike, GREAT, but realistically if that doesn't either increase the total pounds sold or somehow increase the $$$s per pound did that really improve anything?????

Prepotency is within every trait. is prepotancy overated in selection when its expressed in efficiency, doing-ability, or in your idea of $$$$$$$$$$$$$$?

but realistically if that doesn't either increase the total pounds sold or somehow increase the $$$s per pound did that really improve anything?????

isn't that why prepotency is an important part?

 

[RD-Sam]

Is this related to the idea that some sires produce offspring that are BETTER than they are even from average cows?

I think the point brought up above about looking several generations deep in the pedigree rather than just one is part of it. Not an expert but does jive with what I have seen so far in my limited experience.

Jim

According to my understanding of the term its the sire's ability to stamp his offspring with his characteristics (whether it be good or bad)

My theory is that older herds where they have established a certain type there really isn't as much variety in type so the whole herd or the whole selection process leaves less room for variety and thus a better chance of a bull breeding true. That as well as in the case of older herds there are usually a few very influential families and often these families intertwine and in the larger picture there is a form of closer breeding than would typically be the case of outcrossing in herds where there hasn't been the chance for the influential families to rise to the top.

I agree. When I look at AI sires I look for a certain type, that I feel are correct, same with females. If I continue to use a certain type, regardless of pedigree, sooner or later that type is fixed. That fixed type is what creates a true "line". The problem is, is the type I select the correct type? :cowboy:

 

[rocket2222]

We know about qualitative traits and quantitative traits, phenotype and genotype. We have EPD's and DNA profiles, AI and ET, So after looking at the Semex video I posted the other day one more time, where the heck are all the better genetics I have to choose from. :roll:

If I was you, I'd use that bull that you've got grazing in your pasture heavy...and collect him for insurance and to "share" with others who could use him. :tiphat:

George

Took this the other day, he's an outcross, breeding outcrosses, I guess the question should be, can a outcross still stamp (be prepotent) his calves.

Jeez, I don't know. ;-)

 

[DOC HARRIS]

Any bull will "stamp" his calves with his dominant Genetic Characteristics - whether he is an outcross or not. It is 'significant' genetic traits if the bulls Traits and the cows Traits nick in a dominant manner - and there are so many possibilities in the mix that they cannot be accurately determined until the calves make their appearances. The more "line bred" the bull (or cow) is, (up to a sensible and reasonable degree) the higher percentage the resulting predictions will be.

Please don't let this comment launch another "off-the-subject argument" which will lurch' into more specious posts! Let's just discuss this reasonably.

DOC HARRIS

 

[1914 Hereford]

The more "line bred" the bull (or cow) is, (up to a sensible and reasonable degree) the higher percentage the resulting predictions will be.

This is the way we look at it, and for a lot of our customers, it has proven to work just this way.