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<blockquote data-quote="Deepsouth" data-source="post: 1123305" data-attributes="member: 17608"><p>Ron,</p><p>You have jumped from not believing in God because he didn't answer your prayer, to not believing in him because he created h€ll. Why would an all loving God create a place of punishment? To begin with he did not create h€ll for mankind. </p><p></p><p>"Then he will say to those on his left hand, depart from me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels." Matthew 25:41</p><p></p><p>So why do people end up in h€ll? Commercialfarmer pointed out free will, and explained it very well. The devil and his angels were also created with a free will. They chose to rebel against God, and God created h€ll as a place of punishment for them. When we choose to rebel against God, we choose the same fate as the devil and his angels.</p><p>If God is so loving then why doesn't he forgive us? God is holy. That means he is a God of love, but he is also a God of justice. Because he is holy, he must punish sin. However, because he is a God of love, he wants to forgive us. Because sin must be punished, he sent his son to become one of us so he could die in our place as punishment for our sin. He offers us forgiveness through his son, but we still have that free will to choose or reject that forgiveness. He only forgives those who ask for forgiveness. These will not be punished.</p><p></p><p>"Then the King will say to those on his right hand, come you blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world." Matthew 25:34</p><p></p><p>You see that? The kingdom was prepared for us, but the place of punishment was prepared for Satan and his fallen angels. If anyone goes to h€ll it is not God's will, but their own.</p><p>As for the creation being the result of a natural process, or a divine creation, you say that we do not possess any data, evidence or any other means to explain which possibility is fact. Therefore, you conclude that we are "limited to either faith-based support for divine creation, or theories that are advanced based on the meager data available that the universe is the result of natural processes and the laws of physics." Actually, I believe that the natural order, and the laws of physics, support divine creation. That is a discussion for another day. So let's stay with faith based support.</p><p>Ron, I am surprised that you concede that the natural process of creation, or evolution, is based on theories and not facts. Most non-believers incorrectly accept these theories as fact. We both agree that the believer, and the non-believer, have different views on how creation took place. However, I disagree that only the believers have faith. I'd even make the argument that the non-believer has more faith than the believer. It takes more faith than I have to believe that this universe, and all that's in it, came from nothing. I can't find any example of anything coming from nothing. That, my friend, takes real faith. </p><p>As for faith in God, well, Bigfoot hit on that. His observation on faith is that "for some their faith is great, for some their faith is small". I can agree with that, and the Bible teaches us that faith can grow. Some people's faith grows faster than other's faith grows. I'm glad it only takes faith the size of a mustard seed to get the job done. Bigfoot also said, "for some their faith doesn't exist". </p><p>What is faith? Hebrews 11:1 says that faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. If faith is substance of things we hope for, well, what do we hope for? As CF pointed out, the earth and a paradise here on earth were created for man to enjoy. Man was also created to live forever. God created man in his own image to give Himself glory and honor. Through sin, we lost the ability to give God glory and honor. We also lost both paradise and eternal life. Our hope is to have all of that restored. A person that says they do not believe in the existence of God, has no hope, so therefore they have no faith. You say that believers have no tangible evidence for the existence of God. Our evidence is not seen, it is in us. When we put our faith in Him, He comes into our hearts. Our faith gives us the evidence of the unseen. </p><p>Ron, if you are sincere that you want us to pray for you, and I believe you are, we will. However, you must be open to God's call that will surely come. Remember, though, that God, more often than not, speaks to us through a still small voice rather than host of angels.</p><p>BTW, I agree with CF that you would find Ravi Zacharias very interesting to listen to.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Deepsouth, post: 1123305, member: 17608"] Ron, You have jumped from not believing in God because he didn’t answer your prayer, to not believing in him because he created h€ll. Why would an all loving God create a place of punishment? To begin with he did not create h€ll for mankind. “Then he will say to those on his left hand, depart from me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels.” Matthew 25:41 So why do people end up in h€ll? Commercialfarmer pointed out free will, and explained it very well. The devil and his angels were also created with a free will. They chose to rebel against God, and God created h€ll as a place of punishment for them. When we choose to rebel against God, we choose the same fate as the devil and his angels. If God is so loving then why doesn’t he forgive us? God is holy. That means he is a God of love, but he is also a God of justice. Because he is holy, he must punish sin. However, because he is a God of love, he wants to forgive us. Because sin must be punished, he sent his son to become one of us so he could die in our place as punishment for our sin. He offers us forgiveness through his son, but we still have that free will to choose or reject that forgiveness. He only forgives those who ask for forgiveness. These will not be punished. “Then the King will say to those on his right hand, come you blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.” Matthew 25:34 You see that? The kingdom was prepared for us, but the place of punishment was prepared for Satan and his fallen angels. If anyone goes to h€ll it is not God’s will, but their own. As for the creation being the result of a natural process, or a divine creation, you say that we do not possess any data, evidence or any other means to explain which possibility is fact. Therefore, you conclude that we are “limited to either faith-based support for divine creation, or theories that are advanced based on the meager data available that the universe is the result of natural processes and the laws of physics.” Actually, I believe that the natural order, and the laws of physics, support divine creation. That is a discussion for another day. So let’s stay with faith based support. Ron, I am surprised that you concede that the natural process of creation, or evolution, is based on theories and not facts. Most non-believers incorrectly accept these theories as fact. We both agree that the believer, and the non-believer, have different views on how creation took place. However, I disagree that only the believers have faith. I’d even make the argument that the non-believer has more faith than the believer. It takes more faith than I have to believe that this universe, and all that’s in it, came from nothing. I can’t find any example of anything coming from nothing. That, my friend, takes real faith. As for faith in God, well, Bigfoot hit on that. His observation on faith is that “for some their faith is great, for some their faith is small”. I can agree with that, and the Bible teaches us that faith can grow. Some people’s faith grows faster than other’s faith grows. I’m glad it only takes faith the size of a mustard seed to get the job done. Bigfoot also said, “for some their faith doesn’t exist”. What is faith? Hebrews 11:1 says that faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. If faith is substance of things we hope for, well, what do we hope for? As CF pointed out, the earth and a paradise here on earth were created for man to enjoy. Man was also created to live forever. God created man in his own image to give Himself glory and honor. Through sin, we lost the ability to give God glory and honor. We also lost both paradise and eternal life. Our hope is to have all of that restored. A person that says they do not believe in the existence of God, has no hope, so therefore they have no faith. You say that believers have no tangible evidence for the existence of God. Our evidence is not seen, it is in us. When we put our faith in Him, He comes into our hearts. Our faith gives us the evidence of the unseen. Ron, if you are sincere that you want us to pray for you, and I believe you are, we will. However, you must be open to God’s call that will surely come. Remember, though, that God, more often than not, speaks to us through a still small voice rather than host of angels. BTW, I agree with CF that you would find Ravi Zacharias very interesting to listen to. [/QUOTE]
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