Polled Hereford -- Cattle Plan -- Update

[HerefordSire]

I figured since many readers provided direction in regards to an earlier presented cattle plan, I owed an update for those interested. Below are my 3008 daughter donors:

This one is tied for third in the country for BMI (Baldy Maternal):

http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-bin/i ... 524&9=515B


This one is in the top 200 calf list since was only born in 2004.

http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-bin/i ... 524&9=515E


I think the remaining three are in the top 200 dams list also but don't get me for lying:

http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-bin/i ... 62E&9=515C

http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-bin/i ... 326&9=515F

http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-bin/i ... 223&9=5150


I had the above cows flushed twice providing 62 embryos which are now frozen. The last flush will be in the beginning of the coming month. The first (of two, maybe three) transfer date is next week. We just pulled the 59 black Angus cross recipient CIDRs and injected Lute Wednesday. Ovacyte was injected when inserting the CIDRs a week earlier. Now I am recording the (sticker) heats.

Embryo totals with one flush remaining are as follows:
Online 122L (2) - 16
Boomer 29F (1) - 4
Boomer 46B (1) - 3
Embracer 8E (1) - 2
Pounder ET (1) - 8
Governor (1) - 12
Embracer 8006 (1) - 11
Bogart 5L (1) - 0
Kootenay 9K (1) - 6

Next flush for donors are:
Duster 60D
Nation Wide 93N
Highway 157H
Foundaton 46F
Stockmaster 512

Natural Calf for donors are:
Hollywood 37H
Nitro 167N
Channing ET
Fellis 821C
Call 100L

As always, thank-you for your feedback.

 

[oakcreekfarms]

Send me a PM. I think that you will have some nice calves, you just need to make sure that you keep adequate hip and back in the calves.

 

[rocket2222]

Yeah got some great epd's, but lets see how these cows look. Post some pics, numbers aint the only thing that makes a donor, lets see some calves pics too.

 

[LFF]

I like your plans , mine are similar. Have you looked at the P230 Frank bull that Ellis Farms own ? The push is for marbling and with your cows he should make a nice contribution. You may want to ask Bryce Schuman about P230 , he and the Ellis are using each other's genetics.

 

[Badlands]

It looks like you are reporting only single calf contemporary groups from the cows.

Am I reading this wrong?

Badlands

 

[1848]

As this plan has been discussed before, there is no sense beating a dead horse, ....but I think flushing unproven females as young as you are flushing them is a mistake! Forgive my bluntness but I have no use for a plan like this...whether it is based on good genetics or not.

You are flushing for numbers, but then again you are a numbers guy. IMO you may very well regret flushing one or more of the females in the end "if" they are forced to perform in a pasture environment and fall short of your expectations. (I doubt any of these females will be expected to "really work" though). Did you even consider their phenotype and structure in your initial selections and in your breeding selections or were they based on numbers or what is "hot breeding" right now?

Furthermore, you will be hard pressed to to place all these females in a contemporary group to qualify their individual performance, much less the performance of their calves down the road. Maybe that is your plan,...to lock their numbers and have them appear to be a great mating (on paper). Only actual performance of the dam's and calves will tell you the latter. I suppose you will be able to cover up a great deal by feeding the calves out and moving them on as if they were genetically superior.

I hope you just intend to use these embryo's as a base, culling the animals that don't perform, and not put all the genetics on the market as if they were the greatest thing since sliced bred. :roll: If you "work" these females and cull based on their performance and other factors (udder, calving ability, etc), then you may have a decent "base" to start with.

It is still obvious that you are a marketer and expect to capitalize where you think the market is right now. More power to you. I think you will find your investment vs return may not be as lucrative as you had hoped, and that the market you hope for today will been gone tommorrow....although buying from a larger ranch will help turn them a little easier (at least back to the original owner! )

I think HCF could give you some advice, insight, and prove to be a good example hear when it comes to making a quick buck on cattle. Cattle are an investment, but that investment grows with the cattle, and cattle grow slow.

Good luck...and I mean it. Just make sure you doing all the right things to breed a quality product, and not manipulating the system for a market advantage. ;-)

P.S. Hereford US, you knew I was coming here! :lol:

Merry Christmas!

 

[Herefords.US]

As this plan has been discussed before, there is no sense beating a dead horse, ....but I think flushing unproven females as young as you are flushing them is a mistake! Forgive my bluntness but I have no use for a plan like this...whether it is based on good genetics or not.

You are flushing for numbers, but then again you are a numbers guy. IMO you may very well regret flushing one or more of the females in the end "if" they are forced to perform in a pasture environment and fall short of your expectations. (I doubt any of these females will be expected to "really work" though). Did you even consider their phenotype and structure in your initial selections and in your breeding selections or were they based on numbers or what is "hot breeding" right now?

Furthermore, you will be hard pressed to to place all these females in a contemporary group to qualify their individual performance, much less the performance of their calves down the road. Maybe that is your plan,...to lock their numbers and have them appear to be a great mating (on paper). Only actual performance of the dam's and calves will tell you the latter. I suppose you will be able to cover up a great deal by feeding the calves out and moving them on as if they were genetically superior.

I hope you just intend to use these embryo's as a base, culling the animals that don't perform, and not put all the genetics on the market as if they were the greatest thing since sliced bred. :roll: If you "work" these females and cull based on their performance and other factors (udder, calving ability, etc), then you may have a decent "base" to start with.

It is still obvious that you are a marketer and expect to capitalize where you think the market is right now. More power to you. I think you will find your investment vs return may not be as lucrative as you had hoped, and that the market you hope for today will been gone tommorrow....although buying from a larger ranch will help turn them a little easier (at least back to the original owner! )

I think HCF could give you some advice, insight, and prove to be a good example hear when it comes to making a quick buck on cattle. Cattle are an investment, but that investment grows with the cattle, and cattle grow slow.

Good luck...and I mean it. Just make sure you doing all the right things to breed a quality product, and not manipulating the system for a market advantage. ;-)

P.S. Hereford US, you knew I was coming here! :lol:

Merry Christmas!

1848, I'm glad that YOU said it! It saved me from saying very much except - "Great Post!"

And....

I've said it before - as an engineer, I really like numbers! I like numbers because most times there is an ABSOLUTE answer. But the numbers in breeding cattle do not provide an absolute answer. There are too many important things that aren't measured. And the ones that are measured too frequently have low inheritability and accuracy involved. Basically, EPDs are a tool that must be combined with a hefty measure of "cow sense" in making breeding and selection decisions. It still largely boils down to an individual's eye for cattle and their knowledge and understanding of cattle and the environment they are in....AND a little luck as well!

EPDs are a great marketing tool - especially when marketing to those that don't have much understanding of what they really are.

I would have easily fell into the "numbers trap" had it not been for the insight and advice of some successful Hereford breeders who have been continually involved in the business for the past 30 years. I'm very grateful to those that offered that advice.

Merry Christmas, all!

George

 

[HerefordSire]

Send me a PM. I think that you will have some nice calves, you just need to make sure that you keep adequate hip and back in the calves.

I am somewhat relieved to read your writing as I repect what you have written on these boards more than you realize.

I figured It couldn't hurt to match EPD strengths and weaknesses of the cows to EPD strengths and weaknesses of the bulls. For example, using a EPD 1.0 BW and a 8.0 BW would project a 3.5 BW which would not be a trait leader but would be positive on the graph. Also, I paid special attention to projected FAT, REA, & IMF......I performed many searchs of AHA database to find the combination of negative FAT, positive REA, and positive IMF....it really surprised me to not find many top bulls fitting the criteria. Most, if not all, of the EPD projections, should fit this niche as I hope to capitalize in the future based upon this niche.

There were many more criteria I used in bull matching, but since I was more or less shocked in the positive carcass search results, I placed the most emphaisis on this area (I call the above niche "positive carcass" since it takes a little space to define it). I hope to define other criteria I used in the following replies.

 

[HerefordSire]

Yeah got some great epd's, but lets see how these cows look. Post some pics, numbers aint the only thing that makes a donor, lets see some calves pics too.

I'll admit I am no expert, so thank-you for writing that the numbers look great. I don't have any digitals and the cows are in north Arkansas for a last flush this go around, but as soon as they get back I will post some photos for you along with their Farley & Justice calves. All calves are female with four carrying boomer genes and of course all five carrying 3008 genes. One calf is growing very fast so I may have something very special. The cows look very similar to the Huth dispersal 3008 cows. I think the catalog is still available for download even though the sale has been completed.

 

[KNERSIE]

which boomer bull did you use? I have seen some outstanding CS Boomer 29F calves and am thinking about buying some semen of him. Please post pics of the calves as well

 

[HerefordSire]

As this plan has been discussed before, there is no sense beating a dead horse, ....but I think flushing unproven females as young as you are flushing them is a mistake! Forgive my bluntness but I have no use for a plan like this...whether it is based on good genetics or not.

You are flushing for numbers, but then again you are a numbers guy. IMO you may very well regret flushing one or more of the females in the end "if" they are forced to perform in a pasture environment and fall short of your expectations. (I doubt any of these females will be expected to "really work" though). Did you even consider their phenotype and structure in your initial selections and in your breeding selections or were they based on numbers or what is "hot breeding" right now?

Furthermore, you will be hard pressed to to place all these females in a contemporary group to qualify their individual performance, much less the performance of their calves down the road. Maybe that is your plan,...to lock their numbers and have them appear to be a great mating (on paper). Only actual performance of the dam's and calves will tell you the latter. I suppose you will be able to cover up a great deal by feeding the calves out and moving them on as if they were genetically superior.

I hope you just intend to use these embryo's as a base, culling the animals that don't perform, and not put all the genetics on the market as if they were the greatest thing since sliced bred. :roll: If you "work" these females and cull based on their performance and other factors (udder, calving ability, etc), then you may have a decent "base" to start with.

It is still obvious that you are a marketer and expect to capitalize where you think the market is right now. More power to you. I think you will find your investment vs return may not be as lucrative as you had hoped, and that the market you hope for today will been gone tommorrow....although buying from a larger ranch will help turn them a little easier (at least back to the original owner! )

I think HCF could give you some advice, insight, and prove to be a good example hear when it comes to making a quick buck on cattle. Cattle are an investment, but that investment grows with the cattle, and cattle grow slow.

Good luck...and I mean it. Just make sure you doing all the right things to breed a quality product, and not manipulating the system for a market advantage. ;-)

P.S. Hereford US, you knew I was coming here! :lol:

Merry Christmas!

Thank-you for your brute honesty.

This is the way things went down: I bought land for an investment for retirement. Thereafter, I realized I had 150 acres of grass, more or less not including timberland, having to be mowed on my vacation time. I could sell the grass and remove the nutuients or I could figure out a way to make my land payments from the grass. Cattle fit what I had already owned and committed to. So my breed research began and lasted a year prior taking a position in cattle. Once I landed on Polled Herefords as the breed of choice, I made an offer for 50 plus head of Polled Hereford heifers. The owner and I were $3-4K apart and did not make a deal for goodness sake. I figured with a larger investment, I could generate better gene combinations by purchasing cows from the leading multiple trait leading bull and flush these cows into marketable Angus cross two year old second calve heifers so I invested in 60 pairs of Angus cross pairs to be held as recipients. When I have reached land capacity, I can liquidate the recipients and their calves, instead of having to market online Polled Herefords immediately. Therefore, I would rather take the risk of flushing unproven females with good numbers and percentages and pair them up with good bulls, than to take a chance with hand selecting animals across the country or from one gene pool like I almost did.

I did not flush the cows right away. I watched them every day for about 7 months or so. They are drought hustlers relative to the Angus crosses. They are gentle and present no problems relative to the Angus crosses. From my view, these cows are jewels based upon their performance in the pasture but don't tell anyone until you can purchase a 3008 position.

The phenotype was not a top priority for me now. I focused on positive carcass projections and growth. If you notice, most of the cows have positive carcass values (if not all) and have decent growth numbers, thank-you 517. I want working man animals first then I want them to look nice not the other way around. If they look nice first, then I got a bonus, and it appears I received many bonuses. In regards to the "hot" breeding animal, hopefully I can anticipate the market demand by providing positive carcass bulls. I hope to build a solid foundation from which to build through line breeding. Since I couldn't afford to purchase numerous bulls, I figured semen was the way to capitalize my 3008 foundation. On the bull side, I was very interested in obtaining Catalina 24H genes.

Yes, my plan is risky. I am a novice cattleman and I am taking a large risk relative to conventional thinking. I guess the worst thing that could happen is to have all the cattle die or maybe have the worst genentics in the country. Maybe the best thing that could happen is to grow several $100K bulls. Hopefully, I am somewhere in the middle.

 

[HerefordSire]

I like your plans , mine are similar. Have you looked at the P230 Frank bull that Ellis Farms own ? The push is for marbling and with your cows he should make a nice contribution. You may want to ask Bryce Schuman about P230 , he and the Ellis are using each other's genetics.

Thank-you LFF. You don't know how that makes me feel!

I almost considered purchasing Frank semen but if I remember, his FAT EPD and my donor FAT EPDs, when projected, would have been positive instead of negative which was against my initial objectives. He was definitely on my radar though. He came up on my searches when I summed the BMI, BII, CEZ, & CHB into one number. I used this criteria to check my logic and to give me a better idea of what kind of animal I was looking at.

One thing I noticed when searching for marbeling, is that many animals with high IMF also had high a FAT EPD. I decided I was not willing to accept both, at least after projecting matings. Therefore I was limited to a bull with a FAT EPD of not higher than .15 since one donor is -.15

 

[HerefordSire]

It looks like you are reporting only single calf contemporary groups from the cows.

Am I reading this wrong?

Badlands

I still have not sent in the second calf data yet. AHA sent me the paper work the TRP colored sheet other day after my request a couple of months ago to be upgraded from Pedigree member. Now I am just lollygagging. I am also trying to get the DNA analysis taken care of at 32 bucks a pop.

 

[HerefordSire]

which boomer bull did you use? I have seen some outstanding CS Boomer 29F calves and am thinking about buying some semen of him. Please post pics of the calves as well

I bought the female calves with the cows as pairs. The previous breeder had four of the five 3008 daughters bred to LLL Farley which is a Boomer 46B son. The breeder told me I would like the calves and he was exactly correct. Two of them appear to have a larger frame and project to weigh about 1800 pounds at maturity. The largest is about as thick as thick can be.

 

[KNERSIE]

the CS Boomer 29F calves I've seen were also as thick as you can hope for, but they were very moderate framewise, also had ver good eyes.

The breeder of the calves siad that 29F worked best on cows that already have some muscle, but I got the impression he tried to put me off from using 29F. The intentions might not have been all that honourable

 

[HerefordSire]

the CS Boomer 29F calves I've seen were also as thick as you can hope for, but they were very moderate framewise, also had ver good eyes.

The breeder of the calves siad that 29F worked best on cows that already have some muscle, but I got the impression he tried to put me off from using 29F. The intentions might not have been all that honourable

I was a little dissappointed when I used 29F for a flush on one cow only producing four embryos (better than none). If two of them settle, I will be left with two calves of which one may be a bull. I believe I have one or two straws remaining possibly to be used on the special fast growing calf I previously referred to above. 29F was my second selection of ALL bulls behind Online 122L. Hopefully, I can witness a 29F calf growing first hand.

 

[oakcreekfarms]

As I have stated to you before, be careful with the $$$ you aticiapte to get off those bulls. You are using some very good sires, so the if the bulls look and grow the part they might be worth around $5,000. As your reputation grows, so will those numbers. Just remember in order to get the big bucks you have to produce something that others aren't producing. THis might be with epds, actuals, or pedigree. If all you do is sell the same flush mates year after year no one will be buying your bulls, and if they do the cost will go down.

My example of this is, this year we had a Governor x K-K reba donor daughter. He has had good growth and his numbers are fairly good. We want to sell this bull for $1,500 this year. THis was one of the last natural breedings done by Governor. We are hoping this year we have a bull calf that is a 3/4 brother to the Rib Eye bull that Schultz is selling this year, that bull will probably sell for $2000. My point is don't get ahead of yourself, figure out a marketing plan, and start going to breeders farms to get your name out. I too wish you luck, hopefully it all goes well. And maybe in 10 years you will be able to sell a $50,000 bull

 

[HerefordSire]

As I have stated to you before, be careful with the $$$ you aticiapte to get off those bulls. You are using some very good sires, so the if the bulls look and grow the part they might be worth around $5,000. As your reputation grows, so will those numbers. Just remember in order to get the big bucks you have to produce something that others aren't producing. THis might be with epds, actuals, or pedigree. If all you do is sell the same flush mates year after year no one will be buying your bulls, and if they do the cost will go down.

My example of this is, this year we had a Governor x K-K reba donor daughter. He has had good growth and his numbers are fairly good. We want to sell this bull for $1,500 this year. THis was one of the last natural breedings done by Governor. We are hoping this year we have a bull calf that is a 3/4 brother to the Rib Eye bull that Schultz is selling this year, that bull will probably sell for $2000. My point is don't get ahead of yourself, figure out a marketing plan, and start going to breeders farms to get your name out. I too wish you luck, hopefully it all goes well. And maybe in 10 years you will be able to sell a $50,000 bull

".......If all you do is sell the same flush mates year after year no one will be buying your bulls, and if they do the cost will go down."

Thanks for the advice oakcreekfarms. Since you wrote the above statement.....I have been thinking about this for quite some time.....I figure I want four cow families in the long term with the five cows right now being one of the cow families. Notice the cows come from the same bull so I have no diversification on the cow side. If I chose to locate three other cow families (then generally close my herd), where would you suggest I start looking? Keep in mind, I seriously doubt I could purchase several Catalina 24H daughters. I like Boomer daughters very much, but should I go further with this since I am breeding the 3008s to boomers?

 

[El_Putzo]

Keep in mind, I seriously doubt I could purchase several Catalina 24H daughters.

Actually, if I'm not mistaken, I think you could have in the Remitall sale this fall. If I remember correctly, they sold a flush of Catalina 24H for around $10K. If that flush would have netted you 4 heifers, I'd say it would have been worth every penny of your money.

PS. If you're looking to unload those Farley x 3008 daughters, shoot me a PM, I wouldn't mind having a look at them. ;-)

 

[HerefordSire]

Keep in mind, I seriously doubt I could purchase several Catalina 24H daughters.

Actually, if I'm not mistaken, I think you could have in the Remitall sale this fall. If I remember correctly, they sold a flush of Catalina 24H for around $10K. If that flush would have netted you 4 heifers, I'd say it would have been worth every penny of your money.

PS. If you're looking to unload those Farley x 3008 daughters, shoot me a PM, I wouldn't mind having a look at them. ;-)

Strong thought. I checked the Remitall sale very thoroughly. Since the import restrictions prevent me from importing an actual heifer (or pay third party room and board), the Catalina 24H flush would be great way to go. If I paid $10K for a flush, maybe I would be better to use invitro fertilization instead of routine flushing, or consider embryo splitting or even cloning based upon the percentages of a flush. If I am guaranteed six embryos, and half of them settle, I get three calves, one of which may be a heifer. Then what if the heifer calf dies? On the other hand, what if I get 12 embryos?

I was not intending to liquidate the Farleys but please allow me a week or two to consider it.