playing with their guts...

[milkmaid]

:lol2: That get your attention? I've been thinking again. LOL. I want to put a pair of calves on 'full feed' -heavy grain ration- as quickly as possible without causing problems with acidosis. Problem is HOW. lol.

I have here a pair of holstein heifers averaging 1200lbs that I'm feeding out. They have 60 days to live; that's 60 days on grain, and then they'll be butchered. They won't be completely finished as that'd be some 1800lb+ animals (LOL). But I think they'll taste alright anyways - ?

They've both been on pasture, neither on grain. I started them on a 50/50 corn/barley mix tonight at 3lbs/hd/day. Plan is to take them up to 25lbs/hd/day which will be "full feed" as quickly as possible.

How fast can I get them up there?

If I bump them up 3lbs/week then it'll take 6 weeks to get to full feed and they'll only be there for 2 weeks. It'd be nice to get them up there faster than that.

Sooooooooo...I've been thinking. 8) Main problem I see with pushing them too fast is acidosis. If I were to feed sodium bicarbonate and probiotics on a daily basis, could I prevent acidosis and get them up to full feed in half the time? Sounds like a lot of carefully playing with their guts, yes, LOL - but might it work??

Anyone ever tried it?

Any thoughts, comments, etc?
Thanks!

 

[Texas PaPaw]

MM

I understand feedlots are the largest users of sodium bicarb. Don't know how much they feed but a few google searches would probably give an answer. I've seen Arm & Hammer ads in some feedlot magazines.

With adequate bicarb, I would think you could start at 3lb/day & increase 1lb/day until full feed. Do you happen to have corn gluten or dried distillers grain or brewers grain? These byproducts don't have starch, so no acidosis. I've gotten calves on full-feed of corn gluten in 2 days with no problems. Am currently fattening a heifer on a corn gluten, soy hull, malt sprout blend. In 30 days she is already getting fat as mud.

Good luck & happy trails.

Brock

 

[milkmaid]

Thanks for the response Brock, I figured you'd probably have an answer. ;-)

I don't have corn gluten, but on the other hand, I could probably get my hands on it without too much trouble. There's a few mills around that may have it. What does it run as far as co$t? and ADG on gluten - how's it compare with ADG on grain?

I'll run a quick google search and see what I can come up with on the bicarb.

Thanks!

 

[msscamp]

Catchy thread title, Milkmaid. :shock: When do you NOT think? I personally would swear you're thinking even when you're asleep! ;-) :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[Texas PaPaw]

Thanks for the response Brock, I figured you'd probably have an answer. ;-)

I don't have corn gluten, but on the other hand, I could probably get my hands on it without too much trouble. There's a few mills around that may have it. What does it run as far as co$t? and ADG on gluten - how's it compare with ADG on grain?

I'll run a quick google search and see what I can come up with on the bicarb.

Thanks!

Here are 2 links with good byproduct feed info.
http://agebb.missouri.edu/dairy/byprod/index.htm
http://www.ingredients101.com/specification.htm
also a search for byproduct feeds can keep you busy for days.

Some time back I read some NC State research self-feeding free choice hay+corn gluten or hay/soy hulls to 500 lb heifers. If i remember correctly one group gained slightly over 3lb/day & the other slightly less than 3/lb for a 84 day trial. Would expect the adg to be a little less than with corn but this research still showed very respectable gains.

Down here corn gluten, soy hulls & malt sprouts each are about $125ton bulk by the truckload lot. These are shipped by rail from the midwest & then trucked 85 miles. If you feed a lot of gluten, feed a high calcium (4:1 ca/phos) mineral as the gluten is high in phos. I actually prefer the gluten/soy hull/malt sprout blend but gluten + hay & possibly some corn should work. Lots of good possibilities with the byproducts & lack of starch reduces the acidosis issues.

Hope this is helpful.

Good luck & happy trails.

Brock

 

[Big D]

Milkmaid, I like your spirit.
There is a huge market out there for these bicarb products. It is the result of poor management, (a safety net), or in most cases, covering one's A$$.

You should be able to move these cattle to full feed in about two - three weeks. Standard in most feedlots is to feed a recieving ration that would be 50% grain on a dry basis for at least 5 days. Next move to a ration of 65 % grain on a dry basis, over a period of 3 days. You get the picture. The cattle need this adjustment to keep from stressing the rumen and sodium bicarb can help but it is not a replacement for patience and keen management.

If you want to get them on feed faster I'll give you my method for whole corn.
step 1 fill the cattle with a 50% grain mix for 5 days
step 2 in the afternoon of day six after cattle have filled up
introduce whole corn, around 5 pounds per head.
step 3 slowly increase the whole corn in the afternoon.
When they start having excess corn in the bunk start
decreasing the mix ration until they are on whole corn
only.
step 4 Your on your way. Important to keep feed in the bunk
at all times once on the corn, otherwise they will
tend to swallow the corn and not chew it. (key to
making whole corn work well)

I can't recommend a whole corn and barley mix as I have no experience with barley.

D.

 

[Howdyjabo]

When starting calves -- some things you can do to help is to put Cotton seed hulls in the feed and as mentioned Baking Soda.
And feeding Distillers CGF and SBH as they are all safer.
.Also feeding small amounts several times a day or putting a free choice TMR in front of them helps.

You will get lower gains on the byproducts-- but it may pay out as you can get more into them faster.
I'm not sure I would bother to push them for that short of a feeding time..... would it really make that much of a difference??

 

[Aero]

I'm not sure I would bother to push them for that short of a feeding time..... would it really make that much of a difference??

not if you are going to keep them... but she is going to eat them, so Yes it will.

 

[milkmaid]

I'm not sure I would bother to push them for that short of a feeding time..... would it really make that much of a difference??

not if you are going to keep them... but she is going to eat them, so Yes it will.

That's what I was wondering - I've fed one out for 4H before, but he was on feed for about 150 days before the fair and sale. Haven't ever finished one out for myself before and I honestly don't know if 60 days is too few. I've always heard tell that they need to be on grain for at least 60-90 days.

60 works better for us as the local butchers get very busy after the first week of August and don't let the meat hang 'quite as long as they should' - hopefully this way they'll be butchered mid-July and can hang for a good 21 days.

Grain is rolled corn and barley, might actually be a little more corn than barley. I do have whole cottonseed - usually feed that to the younger stock that I'm trying to put frame on - ?

So far I've found some very interesting articles on feedlot management, but nothing that says exactly how much sodium bicarb to feed...I guess I'm looking for a mg/lb of body weight or per lb of grain, some kind of specific chart like that.

Thanks again for the help Karen, D, and Brock! Feel free to share anything else that comes to mind.

Catchy thread title, Milkmaid. :shock: When do you NOT think? I personally would swear you're thinking even when you're asleep! ;-) :lol: :lol: :lol:

:lol2: You're not the first person to have wondered that! ;-)

 

[Howdyjabo]

Feeding them for 60 days IS a good idea-- It get s the "gamey" taste out. But I don't think there is any value in PUSHING them. I wouldn't think they would have enough time to really fatten enough to effect their taste.

BiCarb-- up to 2% of total ration
in your case probably around .3-.5lbs/day

 

[milkmaid]

BiCarb-- up to 2% of total ration
in your case probably around .3-.5lbs/day

Seems like a lot! :shock: If I remember right, treatment of acidosis would be 50 grams (little under 2oz) of bicarb, and I'm just trying to do prevention, so isn't 5-8oz (.3-.5lbs) per day a bit much, even at 25lbs of grain/day? wouldn't prevention be less than the cure? or are my numbers wrong?

Let me propose a feeding plan and tell me if it sounds OK. I start the calves at 3lbs/hd/day and keep them there for 5 days. That sounds safe. Then move them up at 1lb/hd/day plus bicarb and probiotic mixed in with the grain. That'd get them to full feed within 30 days and hopefully without ever going off feed.

Does that sound OK?

How about... how exactly do I get the bicarb to stay in with the grain and not fall to the bottom of the trough? I don't have equipment to feed these two a TMR, unfortunately. Would they still eat their grain if I wet it a little to help the bicarb and probiotic "stick"?

Another thought. (Thinking again, LOL!) When I've fed horses, I've occasionally mixed corn oil in with their grain. Not only did that mix grain and additional supplements thoroughly together, but it certainly helped put on weight. And it's cheap. Don't believe I ever fed more than 1 cup per head. Anyone ever tried feeding corn oil to cows?

 

[Howdyjabo]

Busy tonight but real quick

I'll find my sources for Baking Soda and double check and verrify my numbers tomorrow. It IS a very high cost ingredient--

Watch the oil (fat)-- need to keep fat under 4%(total ration) or you risk messing up the forage digestion even more.

You are thinking along the right idea of getting moisture into the mix-- it helps ALOT of things . Except for the spoilage factor.


Forgot to mention that Adding Bovatec or Rumensin will also help with accidosis.

 

[Texas PaPaw]

You mentioned having whole cottonseed. This will be an excellent compliment to grain as it is one of the most nutrient dense feeds there is. In addition to high protein, it has more energy than corn due to the oil content. It is 22% fat & the hull provides roughage. I would consider Big D's plan for feeding whole corn along with whole cottonseed. Mix the cottonseed with a feed they are familiar with to start & they should readily eat it. You could probably start with 20% cottonseed 40% byproduct pellets & 40% corn + a little hay. Over time increase the corn while decreasing the byproduct pellets & hay, with a final ration of 75% corn & 25% cottonseed. If anything will get'm fat this combo will.

Your brain's gott'a be working overtime on this one. Bet you didn't dream of opening such a can of worms.

Good luck & happy trails.

Brock

 

[Howdyjabo]

Everything I have ever read-- says that the best way to increase feed is to up the energy level by 10% every 5-7 days.
Theory is that everytime you increase-- you trigger a subclinical bout of accidosis-- the calves back off feed then over the next few days stabalize again-- and you want to give them a day or two before you start it up again.

Looked up my figures on Bicarb. Was gonna write that I was in the ball park.
But luckily.............. reread my post and I wrote it down wrong. .3-.5 % of DM.
Must have gone brain dead when I wrote/lb of feed-then read it at least twice and still didn't catch it

The Bi-carb won't help much after the calves are on full feed- so you can quit after the first month.

I tried to find an article I read a long time ago about putting the Baking Soda in the drinking water to prevent sorting-- couldn't find it. It also said that it controlled algea growth which I thought was interesting.

Goat raisers put the baking soda into a mineral mix (that contains Bovatec) and offer it free choice. They used to just put baking soda out alone free choice but found that it could trigger urinary calculi if one got too enthusiastic about licking it

 

[milkmaid]

Looked up my figures on Bicarb. .3-.5 % of DM.

So, if DM = dry matter and the whole ration is "dry" - both grain and hay, is it .3-.5% of the total "everything", hay and grain? Or just of the grain? I'm guessing just grain - that's a lower amount of bicarb.

Everything I have ever read-- says that the best way to increase feed is to up the energy level by 10% every 5-7 days.
Theory is that everytime you increase-- you trigger a subclinical bout of accidosis-- the calves back off feed then over the next few days stabalize again-- and you want to give them a day or two before you start it up again.

So if I keep them on the higher 'dose' of bicarb for the first few days after upping the grain and then drop them down to a lower dose for the rest of the days can I avoid the subclinical acidosis and going off feed?

Or would it be better to go with keeping them on the lower 'dose' of bicarb and upping their feed very gradually every day?

I'd like to keep them from ever going off feed if at all possible.

I tried to find an article I read a long time ago about putting the Baking Soda in the drinking water to prevent sorting

What's "sorting"?

Brock - I like that idea with the cottonseed. So it's 22% fat? I'd wondered what it was. I know it's around 24% protein which is why I like it for putting "frame" on young calves. These heifers are full grown - enough frame there - I just need to cover it. LOL.

And yes, I am "working overtime" thinking about this one. ;-) I have a 3 hour milking shift this afternoon where I'll probably be completely by myself...my hands are plenty occupied but I sure have plenty of time for thinking! LOL.

Thanks again Karen and Brock, I really appreciate it!

 

[Big D]

MM, if you start those cattle on 3lbs. of grain/hd/dy, and take 30 days to get them on full feed then why bother with the bicarb crap at all? That is nowhere near pushing those cattle at all.

whether you push them or not, you would be better off starting out with a higher grain ratio then 3lbs. Or am I missing something? For a 1200 lbs. holstein, three lbs. is nothing.

 

[Howdyjabo]

I'd keep the Bicarb in everyday if I used it.
I was refering to your plan of upping the feed everyday--- papers say up feed once every 5-7 days- to alleviate constant swings. But they are also feeding several head so some can get way too much if others go off feed.

DM is what they consume taking the mosture weight out. So it would be hay and grain. Hay and grain are both pretty dry(there are NO feeds that are completely dry) so figure they have 10% moisture and you'd be about right.
Ex-- 10lbs of hay and grain = 9lbs DM

Most ration type stuff are calculated on DM as there are so many feeds with higher moisture it just evens the playing field in discussions.

Figure your calves are gonna consume around 20lbs/day DM
so .3%-.5% DM means you would add less than 1/2 lbBicarb/100lbs feed(unless I am having another senior moment).
For 20 lbs(two calves-fed twice a day) unless you have a scale that small ......
maybe just grab a small handful-- and figure you won't go over the 2%DM limit


In this case----Sorting refers to the Bicarb being left with the uneaten dust .
Putting it in the water would "in theory" make sure that they get it.

Seems to me that you would also need to supplement limestone
useing corn,WCS and hay.
Not to mention a mineral mix with salt.

Its pretty safe to start with a 50:50 grain to hay ratio
Then work up to 80:20 and you are still pretty safe.

 

[milkmaid]

MM, if you start those cattle on 3lbs. of grain/hd/dy, and take 30 days to get them on full feed then why bother with the bicarb crap at all? That is nowhere near pushing those cattle at all.

whether you push them or not, you would be better off starting out with a higher grain ratio then 3lbs. Or am I missing something? For a 1200 lbs. holstein, three lbs. is nothing.

I don't know - I might be the one missing something - I'm just figuring that both calves have been completely on pasture, no grain, and so 3lbs/hd/day is very safe. Maybe too safe? LOL. Is there a percent of body weight that you can use to calculate what a good starting ration is? I usually figure feed up to 2% of body weight - maybe I remember Jeanne saying once to start at 1% and feed to a maximum of 3%?

That would be starting these calves at 10-12lbs/hd/day and feeding up to 36lbs or so. That sound better? Although I don't really want to take them over 25lbs/hd/day as that's a lot of grain.

I'm just reluctant to start pastured heifers on 10lbs/hd/day - sounds like a recipe for acidosis, but maybe I'm wrong. Some days I'm too careful and sometimes I'm too careless.

Its pretty safe to start with a 50:50 grain to hay ratio
Then work up to 80:20 and you are still pretty safe.

So a 50:50 grain to hay ratio would put them at what? 10lbs grain to 10lbs grass hay? I think they're eating about 20lbs in hay per day. They'd probably eat a little more if they weren't a little stressed right now - one is my calf, other is boss's calf, and both were pulled out of their pastures and dumped in the same pen together. LOL. I think things should even out in another few days.

Thanks again!

 

[Big D]

MM, I have read most if not all your post on this board. I really respect your desire to learn and your ability to understand some complex things. I just believe your making this a bit more complicated than need be, (my own opinion). I would say from your writings you are very compitent and you pay attention to detail, therefore I do not believe you will have any problems, at least with things you can control. 10Lbs. may seem like a lot, however mixed well with roughage you should be safe.

I wish you the best of luck and happy eating with this project.
D.

 

[Howdyjabo]

Big D's right

But keep it up anyhow . Wish I could hire help that was so thoughful about everything they did.