Old Cheap Cow

[Kent]

Well I'm definitely going to hang on to the cow. She's bred to my uncles angus bull, if that amounts to anything, but she's like I said a good cow to have around. The heifer is at this point going to hang around too I just wondered if people would keep one like that not knowing half the background on it.

I've alwasy been a sucker for a pretty face (heifer). You know half the genetic ability, if the heifer grows to weaning to the kind of animals you want to perpetuate, keep her. But don;t be barn blind, pick her apart and see if there are things you really don;t want in your herd.

dun

As usual a voice of reason. I'll try to get some pics of her up in the next few days and take my beating. :help:

There shouldn't be a beating no matter what she looks like. Sometimes people act like you actually designed the animal presented in a picture and they insult you personally. That kind of response usually comes from people that have 10 cows or less (maybe zero) and don't make any money off the ones they do have. They don't realize a cow doesn't have to be a beauty queen to be a good producer. The heifer is out of a cow you bought, bred to a bull you have never seen. She is what she is, but it doesn't reflect on you personally, good or bad.

 

[Brandonm2]

Well I'm definitely going to hang on to the cow. She's bred to my uncles angus bull, if that amounts to anything, but she's like I said a good cow to have around. The heifer is at this point going to hang around too I just wondered if people would keep one like that not knowing half the background on it.

I've alwasy been a sucker for a pretty face (heifer). You know half the genetic ability, if the heifer grows to weaning to the kind of animals you want to perpetuate, keep her. But don;t be barn blind, pick her apart and see if there are things you really don;t want in your herd.

dun

As usual a voice of reason. I'll try to get some pics of her up in the next few days and take my beating. :help:

There shouldn't be a beating no matter what she looks like. Sometimes people act like you actually designed the animal presented in a picture and they insult you personally. That kind of response usually comes from people that have 10 cows or less (maybe zero) and don't make any money off the ones they do have. They don't realize a cow doesn't have to be a beauty queen to be a good producer. The heifer is out of a cow you bought, bred to a bull you have never seen. She is what she is, but it doesn't reflect on you personally, good or bad.

How would we know whether a cow pictured on the internet is a good producer OR NOT??? All we can judge is the picture. The cow MAY be weak topped, bull headed, cowhocked, pigeon toed, flat ribbed, high headed, red eyed, with her ears ripped off by a pack of hungry coyotes, fescue toxicosis and/or the worst snowstorm since the winter of 1880; but that is all we see. We didn't see her lay down and have her first calf unassisted, or any of the other ones since then in an avg interval of 360 days. We weren't there when she weaned off the 820 lb calf and we didn't see the five daughters that followed her into production. We don't see how easy she is too work in the chute and we don't know whether she stays in her fences or not. We don't remember her mom and we don't know what she looked like as a yearling. You post a pic on the internet and we looks for flaws in that pic. If we find them (or in some cases) claim we found them we list them and HOPEFULLY when we found no flaws we have the courage to say that too.

 

[*Cowgirl*]

Well I'm definitely going to hang on to the cow. She's bred to my uncles angus bull, if that amounts to anything, but she's like I said a good cow to have around. The heifer is at this point going to hang around too I just wondered if people would keep one like that not knowing half the background on it.

I've alwasy been a sucker for a pretty face (heifer). You know half the genetic ability, if the heifer grows to weaning to the kind of animals you want to perpetuate, keep her. But don;t be barn blind, pick her apart and see if there are things you really don;t want in your herd.

dun

As usual a voice of reason. I'll try to get some pics of her up in the next few days and take my beating. :help:

There shouldn't be a beating no matter what she looks like. Sometimes people act like you actually designed the animal presented in a picture and they insult you personally. That kind of response usually comes from people that have 10 cows or less (maybe zero) and don't make any money off the ones they do have. They don't realize a cow doesn't have to be a beauty queen to be a good producer. The heifer is out of a cow you bought, bred to a bull you have never seen. She is what she is, but it doesn't reflect on you personally, good or bad.

How would we know whether a cow pictured on the internet is a good producer OR NOT??? All we can judge is the picture. The cow MAY be weak topped, bull headed, cowhocked, pigeon toed, flat ribbed, high headed, red eyed, with her ears ripped off by a pack of hungry coyotes, fescue toxicosis and/or the worst snowstorm since the winter of 1880; but that is all we see. We didn't see her lay down and have her first calf unassisted, or any of the other ones since then in an avg interval of 360 days. We weren't there when she weaned off the 820 lb calf and we didn't see the five daughters that followed her into production. We don't see how easy she is too work in the chute and we don't know whether she stays in her fences or not. We don't remember her mom and we don't know what she looked like as a yearling. You post a pic on the internet and we looks for flaws in that pic. If we find them (or in some cases) claim we found them we list them and HOPEFULLY when we found no flaws we have the courage to say that too.

WOOHOO.

We've got some 10-14 year old cows that are just like that. Hit every year, wean off a nice calf, and stay in decent condition. They were real purty in their day, they just got old like everything else.

 

[circlet]

ok, this will fly in the face of some of the advice you've gotten (and the advice on teeth was 100% correct in my opinion) and i'm sure there are quite a few that will attack me on this one. HOWEVER...i've done it a few times and gotten away with it, and i learned the trick from a guy who claims to do it all the time.

find yourself a broken mouth cow that still seems to be in good shape, the logic is that if she looks good, maybe the bad tooth/teeth aren't bad enough YET (remember, they will be bad enough to seriously affect her at some point). stick yourself a good bull on them and hope that you get a couple calves out of them. if you're smart/lucky/good, you'll be money ahead after the first calf and the second is pure gravy.

my tactic of choice is a black broken mouth and stick a good hereford on her. those baldy calves sell like they're gold around here! this has obvious risks to it, but something to consider. :cboy:

 

[TSR]

Well the reason I asked was because I picked up an older bred cow last year at the sale barn and judging by her condition she probably has 2 or 3 or 4 calves left in her. She has been a really good cow, calved by herself as expected, is a good mama (protective), milks good (raising a good looking heifer), has kept up good body condition through the drought without any real supplementing.

I put her in with the bull 45 days after calving, she was in heat within a week, she stayed with the bull for 60 days and within that time frame I never saw her come back in. Generally speaking she is pretty much what I look for in a cow. Not knowing the bull she was bred to I have a missing link to what this heifer will be like. I have been debating on whether or not to keep her, my uncle wants her too. I am trying to build up my numbers as well. I have also considered selling and buying another bred cow as someone else said earlier.


What would you do?[/quote

One more thing you might consider is weaning early. Might cost you a little but hopefully it would prolong the life of the cow. JMHO

 

[mnmtranching]

Well, One thing for sure. If you buy a 7 to 10 year old bred cow at the sale barn she is going to know how to have a calf and raise it.

But in my case, I sold the four cows for a reason, Yes they have a couple more calves in them and they will do a good job.
They were the bottom end for a reason.

mnmt

 

[la4angus]

Ok now let me ask this question, lets say you do pick up a few good older bred cows, in good condition that throws a good looking heifer calf, do you keep it if the cow is a good one or does the heifer automatically go to the sale?


Then maybe keep a heifer out of her from your good bull?

How do you know that the bull that this calf is sired by isn't better than your bull.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

I would still recommend starting a new cattle operation with young quality cattle. You can depreciate the extra cost off your income taxes and you still have the cow by the time the five years depreciation period is over and you won't start off with a herd you are always trying to breed up to average.

This is not only a pragmatic and logical suggestion, but it will save you TIME - TIME - TIME when figured over an average calf-producing lifetime of a cow. Don't be penny wise - and pound foolish!

DOC HARRIS

 

[DOC HARRIS]

Ok now let me ask this question, lets say you do pick up a few good older bred cows, in good condition that throws a good looking heifer calf, do you keep it if the cow is a good one or does the heifer automatically go to the sale?


Then maybe keep a heifer out of her from your good bull?

J - It seems to me that you are overlooking the very important factor of "Balance" when selecting breeding stock. Your 'talking point' here is " . . . in good condition (looks), . . .good LOOKING calf (looks again). . . . .keep it if the cow is a good one (based on looks ONLY??). . . .and does the heifer calf automatically go to the sale?" (what criteria are you using in determining the fate of the heifer calf? LOOKS ONLY?)

It is imperative for a proper BALANCE be made between physical traits, or "functional" characteristics and EPD's. But you probably won't have the advantage of knowing the cow's EPD's if you buy her(them) at the sale barn, unless you know the breeder, so a knowledge of evaluating those functional traits is necessary to do so by visual appraisal. They include skeletal structure (sound feet and legs, shoulder, top line, and strong hocks that will indicate the ability to carry calves for a few pregnancies), mammary structure (tight udders and small teats) are critical for future expected calves, disposition, femininity, body capacity and fleshing ability. If you have the bonus of being able to know the bull who sired the dam AND the heifer calf you are in clover insofar as having a leg up on your selecting guidelines.

This may seem like a lot of work to do just to buy a few 'old' cows. It IS! But it is your herd life for the next several years. That is why I agree with Brandon in regard to buying younger cows and BALANCING your future genetics with Phenotype and Genotype. In the long run - - there are really NO short cuts to a real profitable producing herd of cows.

If, after it is all said and done, and costs are a determining factor, and you decide to buy some 'old' cows, - - try to use the above suggestions when you breed them the NEXT time and when you breed any of the heifer calves that you may decide to keep. That way you can build your herd more quickly than "hit and miss" plans will achieve.

DOC HARRIS

 

[KenB]

Ok now let me ask this question, lets say you do pick up a few good older bred cows, in good condition that throws a good looking heifer calf, do you keep it if the cow is a good one or does the heifer automatically go to the sale?


Then maybe keep a heifer out of her from your good bull?

J - It seems to me that you are overlooking the very important factor of "Balance" when selecting breeding stock. Your 'talking point' here is " . . . in good condition (looks), . . .good LOOKING calf (looks again). . . . .keep it if the cow is a good one (based on looks ONLY??). . . .and does the heifer calf automatically go to the sale?" (what criteria are you using in determining the fate of the heifer calf? LOOKS ONLY?)

It is imperative for a proper BALANCE be made between physical traits, or "functional" characteristics and EPD's. But you probably won't have the advantage of knowing the cow's EPD's if you buy her(them) at the sale barn, unless you know the breeder, so a knowledge of evaluating those functional traits is necessary to do so by visual appraisal. They include skeletal structure (sound feet and legs, shoulder, top line, and strong hocks that will indicate the ability to carry calves for a few pregnancies), mammary structure (tight udders and small teats) are critical for future expected calves, disposition, femininity, body capacity and fleshing ability. If you have the bonus of being able to know the bull who sired the dam AND the heifer calf you are in clover insofar as having a leg up on your selecting guidelines.

This may seem like a lot of work to do just to buy a few 'old' cows. It IS! But it is your herd life for the next several years. That is why I agree with Brandon in regard to buying younger cows and BALANCING your future genetics with Phenotype and Genotype. In the long run - - there are really NO short cuts to a real profitable producing herd of cows.

If, after it is all said and done, and costs are a determining factor, and you decide to buy some 'old' cows, - - try to use the above suggestions when you breed them the NEXT time and when you breed any of the heifer calves that you may decide to keep. That way you can build your herd more quickly than "hit and miss" plans will achieve.

DOC HARRIS

Not to disagree with what you said, but if a person is selling there calves at the local sale barn the buyers are buying strictly on LOOKS.

 

[Kent]

Well I'm definitely going to hang on to the cow. She's bred to my uncles angus bull, if that amounts to anything, but she's like I said a good cow to have around. The heifer is at this point going to hang around too I just wondered if people would keep one like that not knowing half the background on it.

I've alwasy been a sucker for a pretty face (heifer). You know half the genetic ability, if the heifer grows to weaning to the kind of animals you want to perpetuate, keep her. But don;t be barn blind, pick her apart and see if there are things you really don;t want in your herd.

dun

As usual a voice of reason. I'll try to get some pics of her up in the next few days and take my beating. :help:

There shouldn't be a beating no matter what she looks like. Sometimes people act like you actually designed the animal presented in a picture and they insult you personally. That kind of response usually comes from people that have 10 cows or less (maybe zero) and don't make any money off the ones they do have. They don't realize a cow doesn't have to be a beauty queen to be a good producer. The heifer is out of a cow you bought, bred to a bull you have never seen. She is what she is, but it doesn't reflect on you personally, good or bad.

How would we know whether a cow pictured on the internet is a good producer OR NOT??? All we can judge is the picture. The cow MAY be weak topped, bull headed, cowhocked, pigeon toed, flat ribbed, high headed, red eyed, with her ears ripped off by a pack of hungry coyotes, fescue toxicosis and/or the worst snowstorm since the winter of 1880; but that is all we see. We didn't see her lay down and have her first calf unassisted, or any of the other ones since then in an avg interval of 360 days. We weren't there when she weaned off the 820 lb calf and we didn't see the five daughters that followed her into production. We don't see how easy she is too work in the chute and we don't know whether she stays in her fences or not. We don't remember her mom and we don't know what she looked like as a yearling. You post a pic on the internet and we looks for flaws in that pic. If we find them (or in some cases) claim we found them we list them and HOPEFULLY when we found no flaws we have the courage to say that too.

You know what I meant, Brandon. I'm talking about the ones who make it personal and belittle the one posting the pic. Posts like, "Oh my gosh, what is that thing?" The criticisms you listed above are the ones that need to be given. No matter how ugly the animal, there is a kind way to criticise it and still list all its flaws.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

Ok now let me ask this question, lets say you do pick up a few good older bred cows, in good condition that throws a good looking heifer calf, do you keep it if the cow is a good one or does the heifer automatically go to the sale?


Then maybe keep a heifer out of her from your good bull?

J - It seems to me that you are overlooking the very important factor of "Balance" when selecting breeding stock. Your 'talking point' here is " . . . in good condition (looks), . . .good LOOKING calf (looks again). . . . .keep it if the cow is a good one (based on looks ONLY??). . . .and does the heifer calf automatically go to the sale?" (what criteria are you using in determining the fate of the heifer calf? LOOKS ONLY?)

It is imperative for a proper BALANCE be made between physical traits, or "functional" characteristics and EPD's. But you probably won't have the advantage of knowing the cow's EPD's if you buy her(them) at the sale barn, unless you know the breeder, so a knowledge of evaluating those functional traits is necessary to do so by visual appraisal. They include skeletal structure (sound feet and legs, shoulder, top line, and strong hocks that will indicate the ability to carry calves for a few pregnancies), mammary structure (tight udders and small teats) are critical for future expected calves, disposition, femininity, body capacity and fleshing ability. If you have the bonus of being able to know the bull who sired the dam AND the heifer calf you are in clover insofar as having a leg up on your selecting guidelines.

This may seem like a lot of work to do just to buy a few 'old' cows. It IS! But it is your herd life for the next several years. That is why I agree with Brandon in regard to buying younger cows and BALANCING your future genetics with Phenotype and Genotype. In the long run - - there are really NO short cuts to a real profitable producing herd of cows.

If, after it is all said and done, and costs are a determining factor, and you decide to buy some 'old' cows, - - try to use the above suggestions when you breed them the NEXT time and when you breed any of the heifer calves that you may decide to keep. That way you can build your herd more quickly than "hit and miss" plans will achieve.

DOC HARRIS

Not to disagree with what you said, but if a person is selling there calves at the local sale barn the buyers are buying strictly on LOOKS.

KenB- Your premise was addressed and covered in my second paragraph. . . .and you are right - if they are practicing SELECTION by personal observation ONLY - they had better know what they are looking at - and WHY!

DOC HARRIS

 

[Caustic Burno]

Man I love the view from the cheap seats.
You can fight over high dollar cows just takes more years to come out on the profit side.
I was getting 350 for old crossbred cows in the seventies paying 400 for red ones now. Difference is calves were bringing 30 40 cents then now a buck or better.

 

[Brandonm2]

Man I love the view from the cheap seats.
You can fight over high dollar cows just takes more years to come out on the profit side.
I was getting 350 for old crossbred cows in the seventies paying 400 for red ones now. Difference is calves were bringing 30 40 cents then now a buck or better.

We both know that some people make their living filtering through the culls at the stock yards and most of those people are very good at what they do. That does not mean that I would recommend that as the "best" way to break into the cattle business. I wouldn't recommend that somebody go to a registered sale and buy a bunch of $3000 show quality heifers either. BOTH of those polar opposite approaches require knowledge and skills your typical newbie cattleman does not possess. The purpose of the seedstock business is too provide the industry with seedstock. It is a LOT safer too go to a cattle breeder who is selling commercial grade heifers or young cows and negotiate the best deal you can get rather than going ot a yard and digging through people you don't know's culls and trying too find gems amoung other people's rejects.

 

[Brandonm2]

You know what I meant, Brandon. I'm talking about the ones who make it personal and belittle the one posting the pic. Posts like, "Oh my gosh, what is that thing?" The criticisms you listed above are the ones that need to be given. No matter how ugly the animal, there is a kind way to criticise it and still list all its flaws.

I do and you are absolutely right. Some posters do engage in excessive personal attacks. I do think that you used a little bit too broad a brush though.

 

[Caustic Burno]

Man I love the view from the cheap seats.
You can fight over high dollar cows just takes more years to come out on the profit side.
I was getting 350 for old crossbred cows in the seventies paying 400 for red ones now. Difference is calves were bringing 30 40 cents then now a buck or better.

We both know that some people make their living filtering through the culls at the stock yards and most of those people are very good at what they do. That does not mean that I would recommend that as the "best" way to break into the cattle business. I wouldn't recommend that somebody go to a registered sale and buy a bunch of $3000 show quality heifers either. BOTH of those polar opposite approaches require knowledge and skills your typical newbie cattleman does not possess. The purpose of the seedstock business is too provide the industry with seedstock. It is a LOT safer too go to a cattle breeder who is selling commercial grade heifers or young cows and negotiate the best deal you can get rather than going ot a yard and digging through people you don't know's culls and trying too find gems amoung other people's rejects.

Lets play devils advocate.
Where do you sell your cows? Are all of your cows culls? Your culls may be very fine cattle that no longer fit your strategy. You haul an older ten year cow to the barn, I am a shewd buyer I watch who is unloading at the sale that day and get there numbers. I know Brandomn is a heck of cowman and runs a nice operation and he is always culling to keep youth in his herd. You can't just walk in the barn and start buying unless you have experience.
One of the oldest Hereford breeder's in the state hauls his to the salebarn just like the poor boy, you just don't get papers. Heck JC will be sitting in the stands to see what they are bringing while buyers like me are buying them.

 

[Brandonm2]

You have been going to that sale for 25 years. You know every large rancher in the county by sight. You have "been there and done that" before. Some newbie who does not know anybody and who has never bought a cow in their life would be better off hiring an order buyer than to wade into a sale and buy 20 cull mama cows.

In my case, we were always bad too hold onto commercial cows too long. Until we started losing leases or when cows got into the habit of getting out, most of my non-played out culls had real production, behavioral, or health problems and a lot of my culls I COULD have sold too people I know who were looking for cows; bough I won't private treaty something I know is likely to do poorly.

My heifers is what you should have sorted through. If initial outlay is REALLY a problem, I would rather buy sub 500 lb heifers in the big fall runs (unless the feeder market is REALLY jumping...like last year!). I can put together a really uniform group with a little patience (it is probably easiest in most barns to go all black, all whiteface, all charx, or downsouth all brahmanx). Grow them out together, vaccinate for everything, sell any obvious duds before breeding, and sell anything that doesn't settle after 90 days with a calving ease type bull. That way after two years wait, you are in the business and have a young herd that should be together for the next ten years plus. Though for $100-200 a head over market MOST outfits would be willing too pull out a group of better heifers off the farm for you. If you know and are friends with the guy, he would probably be willing to do it for $50 a head over market.

All the big registered breeder do use the sale barn....or they sell their culls on the rail..........but some outfit that has a production sale every year and who is asking for buyers in the breed magazine year round I would be really wary of cows they were selling by the pound if we are not in a bad drought or something.

I am not bold enough to suggest you are WRONG on this issue; but I have seen a lot of newbies make big time mistakes at the barn. Over and over again some dude who has worked HARD all his life, buys 40 acres, buys a $38,000 tractor, a $35,000 crew cab, duallie, ton pickup, $8000 32' gooseneck trailer, $7000 all terrain golf cart like vehicle, and then goes to the stockyard and buys the 10 cheapest old cows they had at the sale that day!......usually with a bologna bull he bought by the pound. That herd usually never does look "right"; much less good.

 

[Caustic Burno]

You have been going to that sale for 25 years. You know every large rancher in the county by sight. You have "been there and done that" before. Some newbie who does not know anybody and who has never bought a cow in their life would be better off hiring an order buyer than to wade into a sale and buy 20 cull mama cows.

In my case, we were always bad too hold onto commercial cows too long. Until we started losing leases or when cows got into the habit of getting out, most of my non-played out culls had real production, behavioral, or health problems and a lot of my culls I COULD have sold too people I know who were looking for cows; bough I won't private treaty something I know is likely to do poorly.

My heifers is what you should have sorted through. If initial outlay is REALLY a problem, I would rather buy sub 500 lb heifers in the big fall runs (unless the feeder market is REALLY jumping...like last year!). I can put together a really uniform group with a little patience (it is probably easiest in most barns to go all black, all whiteface, all charx, or downsouth all brahmanx). Grow them out together, vaccinate for everything, sell any obvious duds before breeding, and sell anything that doesn't settle after 90 days with a calving ease type bull. That way after two years wait, you are in the business and have a young herd that should be together for the next ten years plus. Though for $100-200 a head over market MOST outfits would be willing too pull out a group of better heifers off the farm for you. If you know and are friends with the guy, he would probably be willing to do it for $50 a head over market.

All the big registered breeder do use the sale barn....or they sell their culls on the rail..........but some outfit that has a production sale every year and who is asking for buyers in the breed magazine year round I would be really wary of cows they were selling by the pound if we are not in a bad drought or something.

I am not bold enough to suggest you are WRONG on this issue; but I have seen a lot of newbies make big time mistakes at the barn. Over and over again some dude who has worked HARD all his life, buys 40 acres, buys a $38,000 tractor, a $35,000 crew cab, duallie, ton pickup, $8000 32' gooseneck trailer, $7000 all terrain golf cart like vehicle, and then goes to the stockyard and buys the 10 cheapest old cows they had at the sale that day!......usually with a bologna bull he bought by the pound. That herd usually never does look "right"; much less good.

We agree I never said the barn is the place for the inexperienced, I said there are good buys to be had at the barn by an experienced eye. I seen a fellow that recently moved in the area, that knew noting of cows but wanted some. He got a someone with experience to buy him some good cows from the barn and he did just not what I would have bought an inexperienced beginner in he bought him F-1 brangus and tigers.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

he bought him F-1 brangus and tigers

:shock: :shock: :shock: :roll: WHOOO-EEE! When is the "Buyer's" trial scheduled??

DOC HARRIS

 

[KenB]

You have been going to that sale for 25 years. You know every large rancher in the county by sight. You have "been there and done that" before. Some newbie who does not know anybody and who has never bought a cow in their life would be better off hiring an order buyer than to wade into a sale and buy 20 cull mama cows.

In my case, we were always bad too hold onto commercial cows too long. Until we started losing leases or when cows got into the habit of getting out, most of my non-played out culls had real production, behavioral, or health problems and a lot of my culls I COULD have sold too people I know who were looking for cows; bough I won't private treaty something I know is likely to do poorly.

My heifers is what you should have sorted through. If initial outlay is REALLY a problem, I would rather buy sub 500 lb heifers in the big fall runs (unless the feeder market is REALLY jumping...like last year!). I can put together a really uniform group with a little patience (it is probably easiest in most barns to go all black, all whiteface, all charx, or downsouth all brahmanx). Grow them out together, vaccinate for everything, sell any obvious duds before breeding, and sell anything that doesn't settle after 90 days with a calving ease type bull. That way after two years wait, you are in the business and have a young herd that should be together for the next ten years plus. Though for $100-200 a head over market MOST outfits would be willing too pull out a group of better heifers off the farm for you. If you know and are friends with the guy, he would probably be willing to do it for $50 a head over market.

All the big registered breeder do use the sale barn....or they sell their culls on the rail..........but some outfit that has a production sale every year and who is asking for buyers in the breed magazine year round I would be really wary of cows they were selling by the pound if we are not in a bad drought or something.

I am not bold enough to suggest you are WRONG on this issue; but I have seen a lot of newbies make big time mistakes at the barn. Over and over again some dude who has worked HARD all his life, buys 40 acres, buys a $38,000 tractor, a $35,000 crew cab, duallie, ton pickup, $8000 32' gooseneck trailer, $7000 all terrain golf cart like vehicle, and then goes to the stockyard and buys the 10 cheapest old cows they had at the sale that day!......usually with a bologna bull he bought by the pound. That herd usually never does look "right"; much less good.

He may end up with sorry cows, but he will have enough fancy equipment to impress people with. :lol: ;-) :lol: