newbie question

cdann40

Member
Joined
Nov 28, 2006
Messages
11
City & State/Province
NW Pa
could anyone suggest a good book that could give a general overview of grasses/hay for a newcomer because I've been around cattle and worked on my cousin's farm but when baling it and dishing it out I though hay was just hay. Thanks
chris
 
Probhably the best place to get information that is pertinent to your area is your local NRCS office or possibly your extension service

dun
 
Thanks for the advice. Another general question is since I'm starting our farm kinda from scratch (my father in law took a generation off from farming) right now the land is rented out to a farmer so once we prep the fields what does anyone suggest to plant, for ex. is there a combination of seeds that I could buy or do I have to buy and mix them myself?

Chris
 
cdann40":3iuinu9w said:
Thanks for the advice. Another general question is since I'm starting our farm kinda from scratch (my father in law took a generation off from farming) right now the land is rented out to a farmer so once we prep the fields what does anyone suggest to plant, for ex. is there a combination of seeds that I could buy or do I have to buy and mix them myself?

Chris

Once again, check with your local NRCS or extension service. They will know what is the most apropriate for your area.

dun
 
cdann40":uunz1rn5 said:
Thanks for the advice. Another general question is since I'm starting our farm kinda from scratch (my father in law took a generation off from farming) right now the land is rented out to a farmer so once we prep the fields what does anyone suggest to plant, for ex. is there a combination of seeds that I could buy or do I have to buy and mix them myself?

Chris

After you talk to your local FSA office, or if you do not want to get involved with them at all, depending on what you are going to use the land for, hay, pasture, annual crops? For pasture here, people like fescue/clover/orchardgrass, hay ground I would say, orchardgrass/clover, maybe lezpedeza, or alfalfa (expensive to plant and maintain though), for annuals, winter wheat, sudan, rye, is what we have done over the years. Just depends on what type of animals you are going to keep, beef, dairy, calves..

In my opinion, sometimes seeding, liming, etc... can be done cheaper without going through the local FSA office, and less hassle too, but then again when their are programs to be had, and money handed out, you have to have your farm listed with them to get the programs, and they do cost sharing on seeding, liming, etc.. for new fields, just have to abide by their rules.

Hope this helps

GMN
 
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Thank you for everyone's advice it is greatly appreciated as I am the type of person that likes to be prepared for whatever I am getting into.

Chris
 
First question is does your tenant farmer have a long term lease or is it year by year. If long term you might have to negotiate your way out of it if he'll turn it loose. If year by year then you need to let him know ASAP that you don't plan to rent it to him anymore.

Second, if it's been in row crops then 99% chance it's been in the farm program and earning payments. You'll have to let FSA know that you're the new operator and sign up for the program so that you can recieve the payments (and/or the landowner depending on shares/arrangements) and then you'll have to certify it as fallow or zero-planted to row crops. Under the current farm program you can draw the base and countercyclical payments automatically without planting the first crop seed; in fact that's what we've done the past few years to let Uncle Sam pay for the fencing and grass seeding our 60 acre former cottonfields here on the home place into pasture. The only requirements are that you keep the weeds down (some rice farm landowners have taken the farms away from the tenants because they could make more money on the program payments than the land rents and all they've had to do is bush-hog it once or twice a year to stay eligible) but if you're running cows on it they should keep it fairly decent on that count, and you must sign up for the farm program each year and then certify it as fallow or zero-planted (to row crops). The nice thing about this option is that you get the payments automatically based on the historical crop bases and there are no strings attached (other than the three I mentioned) so you can do whatever you want however you want on whatever timetable you want.

Now you can sign up for the EQIP program through the NRCS. I signed up for it but then backed out when I found out how many requirements are put on you. They have everything from a cross-fencing cost share program to water line/trough cost share programs to paying 50% of the pasture seeding or sprigging, and even brush control cost share programs. Not all programs are offered in all areas though, so you'll have to check with your local office to find out what's available. Our office doesn't offer cost share on ponds and windmills because we have too many 'city farmers' coming in buying 5 acres and turning it into a 'horse ranch' and they would overwhelm the system requesting (and legally entitled to) funding for fish ponds and windmills, more for decoration and recreation than any real use. But they couldn't be turned down because of it so they just don't offer it at all here. Anyway, it's something to check into and if you can live with the requirements, it might be an excellent resource for you. What I didn't like about it is that I tend to do things with and eye to cost (on the cheap some might say) and when they printed out 32 pages of requirements for cross fence construction under the 50% cost share program I rapidly realized that I would end up spending 3 times what I had available on doing it their way, so even with them reimbursing half it was going to cost me more out of pocket than I planned to spend to begin with. Additionally I didn't like the 'maintain and inspected by NRCS for the next ten years' part. I just opted out and did it myself the way I wanted it done and according to what I could afford. No since in buying a Cadillac if a Yugo will get you there... :)

As for the specific forages for your area, that is so dependent on local climate and weather patterns, soils, topography, livestock types, stocking rates, goals, and methods that any advice you get on here unless it's from a neighbor up the road will be pretty meaningless. The NRCS guys here were really nice and very helpful though, and discussed my options with me at length and made suggestions and printed me off a bunch of their information on various grasses and legumes and research and stuff like that. They can give you planting rates, dates, seed sources, and stuff like that depending on what you're trying to accomplish. Your local Extension should have a lot of information and research pertinent to your area as well. They should be glad to help.

Hope this helps you out, and good luck! OL JR :)
 
cowtrek":1gmorum5 said:
First question is does your tenant farmer have a long term lease or is it year by year. If long term you might have to negotiate your way out of it if he'll turn it loose. If year by year then you need to let him know ASAP that you don't plan to rent it to him anymore.

Second, if it's been in row crops then 99% chance it's been in the farm program and earning payments. You'll have to let FSA know that you're the new operator and sign up for the program so that you can recieve the payments (and/or the landowner depending on shares/arrangements) and then you'll have to certify it as fallow or zero-planted to row crops. Under the current farm program you can draw the base and countercyclical payments automatically without planting the first crop seed; in fact that's what we've done the past few years to let Uncle Sam pay for the fencing and grass seeding our 60 acre former cottonfields here on the home place into pasture. The only requirements are that you keep the weeds down (some rice farm landowners have taken the farms away from the tenants because they could make more money on the program payments than the land rents and all they've had to do is bush-hog it once or twice a year to stay eligible) but if you're running cows on it they should keep it fairly decent on that count, and you must sign up for the farm program each year and then certify it as fallow or zero-planted (to row crops). The nice thing about this option is that you get the payments automatically based on the historical crop bases and there are no strings attached (other than the three I mentioned) so you can do whatever you want however you want on whatever timetable you want.

Now you can sign up for the EQIP program through the NRCS. I signed up for it but then backed out when I found out how many requirements are put on you. They have everything from a cross-fencing cost share program to water line/trough cost share programs to paying 50% of the pasture seeding or sprigging, and even brush control cost share programs. Not all programs are offered in all areas though, so you'll have to check with your local office to find out what's available. Our office doesn't offer cost share on ponds and windmills because we have too many 'city farmers' coming in buying 5 acres and turning it into a 'horse ranch' and they would overwhelm the system requesting (and legally entitled to) funding for fish ponds and windmills, more for decoration and recreation than any real use. But they couldn't be turned down because of it so they just don't offer it at all here. Anyway, it's something to check into and if you can live with the requirements, it might be an excellent resource for you. What I didn't like about it is that I tend to do things with and eye to cost (on the cheap some might say) and when they printed out 32 pages of requirements for cross fence construction under the 50% cost share program I rapidly realized that I would end up spending 3 times what I had available on doing it their way, so even with them reimbursing half it was going to cost me more out of pocket than I planned to spend to begin with. Additionally I didn't like the 'maintain and inspected by NRCS for the next ten years' part. I just opted out and did it myself the way I wanted it done and according to what I could afford. No since in buying a Cadillac if a Yugo will get you there... :)

As for the specific forages for your area, that is so dependent on local climate and weather patterns, soils, topography, livestock types, stocking rates, goals, and methods that any advice you get on here unless it's from a neighbor up the road will be pretty meaningless. The NRCS guys here were really nice and very helpful though, and discussed my options with me at length and made suggestions and printed me off a bunch of their information on various grasses and legumes and research and stuff like that. They can give you planting rates, dates, seed sources, and stuff like that depending on what you're trying to accomplish. Your local Extension should have a lot of information and research pertinent to your area as well. They should be glad to help.

Hope this helps you out, and good luck! OL JR :)

I am getting ready to look into the EQUIP program for fencing myself. What is is that they do that is so expensive? All I have read so far is 4 wires, which isn't enough for me anyway. Why do you see that "their" way is the cadillac way v.s. yours?
 
Don't get me wrong EQIP is a great program and has a lot of good features, just wasn't a good fit for me. I'm a maverick and don't like the rules and regulations and having someone looking over my shoulder all the time. But if you can deal with it it's great.

I like to choked when he handed me the 'requirements' for the cross fence program. They had page after page of drawings and specifications on post size requirements and proper installation and design of corner and H braces and line post requirements for size and spacing and wire guages and spacing and on and on and on. When we decided to quit the row crop business we thought (briefly) about hiring the fencing done but soon realized that would be cost prohibitive. We put in steel corners in concrete from TSC and steel H's in concrete from TSC every 1/8 mile with five strands of Gaucho on 6.5 foot steel posts every ten feet for the perimeter fence with a hot wire just inside it. For the crossfence we put 4 strands of Gaucho on steel posts 15 feet apart with wooden H-braces. It's been nearly a year since I looked at the NRCS specs sheets but I just realized that it would cost a lot more to do it their way and then only be reimbursed for half the cost, and then be locked in for the life of the contract to maintenance and inspections according to their requirements. They also had a cost share program for laying water lines, but you had to install troughs at the same time again to their specs. The cost share amounted to up to 90 cents per foot and half the cost of the troughs. I wanted to do the work myself and was told that was permitted, but that they would come out and measure the runs and would then tell me what size tubing or pipe I would be required to use. Well, I had modified my subsoiler into a poor man's trencher pipelayer and with a 400 foot run I could rapidly see that they'd probably want me to put in 1.5 inch pipe or something when what I wanted to do was lay 3/4 inch poly tubing and connect up with PVC pipe. Additionally, the trough requirements were that you get a double-thick 4000 gallon concrete trough from their supplier and install it surrounded by an 8 foot wide gravel pad over cloth on all four sides, with a 3 foot wide concrete 'sidewalk' surrounding the gravel all the way around to keep the gravel contained. The idea was that the huge trough would have about a week's supply of water in the event of power failure, which is a good idea, but the double thick concrete part was really overkill in my book. The gravel pad, again, is a good idea since we all know how badly cattle can tear up the soil around troughs, but having to lay such a large pad, over stabilizing cloth, and then pour a 3 foot wide 'sidewalk' around it all to contain the gravel was, again, a lot more expense than I wanted to go to. Not saying it's right or wrong but for someone intent on "doing it right" no matter what the cost, it's a good deal. For folks on a tight budget it's overkill. The cost share on sprigging was pretty nice but when I found out that I couldn't do ANYTHING until the contract was approved and it be eligible for cost share, and that the contracts weren't approved until usually July (this was last January) so I couldn't even start preparing the land until the contract was approved and submit the costs for cost share, I decided that was more trouble than it was worth too.

It just depends on what a person's goals are and what he can or can't live with I guess. No right or wrong about it, just depends on each person's situation. Good luck! OL JR :)
 

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