New ground for pasture..i mowed it, but have briars, hardwood coming back..

[RNW]

taken in 35 acres for pasture that was overgrown with small hardwoods, briars, weeds. i mowed it and need advice on what to spray that is ok for cattle pasture.
has good grass also with the above. was pasture years ago. i've been researching some and would love to have some input. i have come across Grazon HL, Pasture Guard HL and a few others.
this ground won't be used for hay in near future, just pasture. I'm in North Mississippi. Thanks for any advice

 

[mwj]

How many trees are you talking about? If not that many a spot sprayer with crossbow will do a decent job. About anything that will work on brush will kill your clover.

 

[bird dog]

I like Surmount. It has a good residual. A Tordon Remedy mix also works good. You may have to get a pesticide/herbicide license to get the good stuff.

I bought a place last January that had 15 acres of brush consisting of Ash junipers, green briar, mesquites, blackberry vines and bunches of other junk. I broadcast spayed it with Remedy first when the blackberry started flowering, then came back a month later and sprayed it again with the Crossbow that mwj mentioned. That did a good job on a lot of it. I have spot sprayed the other harder to get big stuff with Tordon/Remedy mix since then. The ash junipers (cedar trees) were thick is some areas and I have been spraying from the outside inward as they weaken.

It is going well. The native grass exploded after the crossbow spray.

 

[angus9259]

If it were me, and I'm usually wrong about most stuff.... if you can already mow it and it's 35 acres (not huge), I'd let the cattle out on it and mow twice a year for a couple years and see what happens - unless you think there's something toxic out there. While often wrong, I've found that cattle and a brush hog can do a ton of work for you and, frankly, have never found a way to avoid brushhogging anyway just to keep the grass refreshing. But, I typically advise people to do the opposite of what I would do....

 

[RDFF]

I agree with @angus9259... If you can mow it, that means the trees are small. Any spray that will kill the brush, will also take out any of the broadleaf legumes that you have out there, especially if you use enough of it to kill the trees/brush. Spot spraying, if they're not "everywhere" may be a helpful option. That said, if you've mowed them off, then put cattle on it strategically to help ensure that those trees/brush get defoliated regularly, and they'll thin out and disappear all on their own. You may need to be grazing it harder than you would prefer to achieve this though... so the natural remedy to this would be to be feeding some hay out there (shipped in fertility), particularly anytime that you're not able to be grazing new growth (so in winter), but potentially, especially at first, even during the summer. Graze it somewhat "hard", and then feed some hay, preferably by unrolling to "spread the wealth", particularly across those areas where the trees/brush are the worst.

You'll have to do this "by feel"... and "observation". Hit it hard enough with the cattle so that they take all the leaves off of the trees/brush. Don't worry too much about how you're grazing the grass... at least if you're unrolling hay, and preferably using hay that has viable grass/clover seed in it. And once you're ahead of the trees/brush, LET IT MATURE (go to seed) BEFORE YOU TURN THE COWS IN IN SPRING! In a few years, it'll be some of your best pasture.

 

[Warren Allison]

taken in 35 acres for pasture that was overgrown with small hardwoods, briars, weeds. i mowed it and need advice on what to spray that is ok for cattle pasture.
has good grass also with the above. was pasture years ago. i've been researching some and would love to have some input. i have come across Grazon HL, Pasture Guard HL and a few others.
this ground won't be used for hay in near future, just pasture. I'm in North Mississippi. Thanks for any advice

24D

 

[RDFF]

Think about it this way... if you had a young tree stand that you wanted to encourage to grow, how would you manage livestock in that stand? And why? Most of the time, you'd automatically fence the animals OUT of that area, and mow the grasses etc. around those trees, to avoid the animals browsing on them, and to give them the advantage over the grasses around them. So to DIS-courage their growth, you'd do the opposite... PUT the cattle in there regularly, and manage them to negatively impact the tree growth. And then ENcourage the growth of the grasses all around them, to crowd them out. And ask yourself then, HOW do those cattle negatively impact the growth of those trees/brush?

Mowing the trees amounts to the same thing as "pruning" them essentially, (cuts off the "stump"/branches), and it doesn't actually accomplish the same as "grazing" does. When you prune a tree branch (cut it off), it'll shoot out three new "shoots" at that cut... making the tree "thicker" as it continues to grow... which generally is one of the primary goals of pruning... to make the tree healthier, and thicker, with more lush new growth. It ENcourages the tree to heal and establish fresh new growth (same as when we graze or mow a grass... the "injury" stimulates the plant to recover). Yes, when you mow the plant off short, you'll have eliminated alot of "older, more mature top growth" (so it may be necessary to get to a "reset")... BUT... you'll be causing the "stump" to want to quickly replace itself with lush new top growth, to regain its photosynthetic capabilities. When the cow comes in, she generally doesn't "cut off the branches, but instead, she just strips the "stump and branches" of all of it's leaves, starving the plant of its photosynthetic capability that it needs to survive, without making that "cut" on the branch that stimulates the "3 for 1" response. Do this often enough over enough time, and that plant literally burns up all of its energy reserves trying to "refoliate", to the point that it dies from starvation... it's never allowed to replenish the energy (which is derived from solar) that it is giving up.

Defoliating that tree/brush regularly throughout the growing season, and then "fertilizing" the grasses and applying "residue" to the soil, to ENcourage the grasses and other desireable plants, will eventually result in a great pasture scenario. On the other side of the coin..., eliminating all the other beneficial forbes (broadleaves) by using a broad spectrum broadleaf herbicide, will thin the stand of beneficial grasses/forbes species, reducing competition and allowing space for the trees to find a spot to get started again. And don't ever think that "broadleaf herbicides" don't harm your grasses... just watch what happens to the grass immediately after application of the 24D type products... or spray at just a bit more heavy rate, to accentuate this and see this impact more visibly. Your grasses will slow down significantly initially, and even yellow or turn brown for a while, but they will eventually (usually) recover from this injury, where the broadleaves "generally" will be killed (HOWEVER, watch them carefully... they TOO will sometimes only be "injured", and then will recover). And of course, THIS is how we end up with herbicide resistant plants... And remember that they (the trees/brush) will grow from roots remaining in the soil, as well as from seed dropped AND IMPORTED from nearby stands, by wind and birds, etc. And there's likely a strong legacy seed bank already there in the soil. You can't eliminate them from havng the potential to grow there... if you leave that field entirely empty, they WILL show up again. The best defense, is a good offense. And the cow is probably one of your best offensive players!

 

[Goldfinch]

24D

Might as well bring the B-29s and a-bombs too.

 

[RDFF]

Why a Pruned Branch Shoots Out Multiple New Shoots​

When you cut a branch, the tree often responds by producing several new shoots because of how its growth system works. This is due to two main factors: apical dominance and the activation of dormant buds.

1. Apical dominance and auxin suppression
In most trees, the tip of a branch (the apical bud) produces a hormone called auxin, which suppresses the growth of lateral buds along the branch. These lateral buds are often dormant. When you prune the branch, you remove the apical bud, so auxin levels drop in that area. This relieves the suppression, allowing the dormant lateral buds to awaken and grow Live to Plant+1.

2. Epicormic sprouts from dormant buds
In addition to lateral buds on the branch itself, many trees have epicormic buds — dormant buds located just beneath the bark — that can also sprout when the branch is cut Southern Botanical+1. These buds are part of the tree’s survival strategy. When the branch is damaged or removed, the tree activates them to produce new growth, often in the form of water sprouts or suckers Southern Botanical+1.

3. Why multiple shoots form
Because there are often several dormant lateral buds along the branch, and sometimes multiple epicormic buds nearby, cutting the branch can trigger more than one shoot to emerge. The number of shoots depends on how many buds are present and how much of the branch is removed.

4. Growth pattern after pruning
These new shoots tend to grow vertically upward (water sprouts) because they are not under the same apical dominance control as the original branch. Over time, if you remove these shoots, the tree may produce more in response, so gradual pruning is recommended to avoid excessive regrowth Southern Botanical.

In short: Pruning a branch removes the apical bud, reducing auxin and releasing dormant lateral buds, plus activating epicormic buds beneath the bark. This combination of hormonal change and bud activation is why you often see three or more new shoots emerge after a cut Live to Plant+1.

 

[bird dog]

The original poster asked about what to spray for hard woods, briars and weeds. In the south, cattle will not "graze" the leaves off of briars just like they won't eat bull nettles. mesquite trees or honey locust. You spray them or you use some mechanical way to get rid of them. Mowing them does nothing but encourage more ground hugging growth. Trying to fertilize the grass to will also fertilize the stuff you don't want and make it stronger and harder to kill.

Putting cattle on a over grown brush infested place will help but won't eliminate the problems. Goats will though.

 

[Brute 23]

You might look in to ipt, basically spot spraying things out you don't want like woody plants and heavy concentrations of briars. Its surprising the purpose of many of the plants serve in our pastures despite being told they do not.

When you spray a broadloeaf over every thing like grazon next hl its the equivalent of chemo on the land. It takes out the good, the bad, and basically leaves a small number of vitals. Like our bodies, its best to have that diversity for the entire system.

 

[RDFF]

Here's a good example of what I'm talking about with spray. Notice how this plant certainly WAS "dead"....... or at least appeared to be. I hit this fenceline with 2-4D to kill the brush on it... can't graze it out because it's on the other side of the fence in the road ditch, and you can't always minimize the brush by mowing underneath that fence, especially when it might be growing right up against a fence post. And this was a pretty aggressive Mulberry bush, so I intentionally hit it hard with my hand wand, and soaked it. And it wrinkled up pretty quickly, and some of it died off, but some of those leaves began coming out of the hit after about 2 weeks... so I hit it HARD again with more 2-4D. That's when it really "died off", as you can tell from the dried up plant and leaves. That was about 3 weeks ago. And now look at what's coming back again. If you look behind this plant, you can see very healthy broadleaves in the ditch... that ALL got sprayed with 2-4D, when I made BOTH of those applications, and the broadleaves that were there DID shrivel up with both of those applications... but they either grew back again (most of the woody species... they're tougher), or they were quickly replaced with new plants that sprouted. Do you notice that it looks like there's a space about 6-8' wide or so, where the grass is not as "advanced" as it is on the far bank of the ditch? Almost looks like I must have mowed a swath there, along the fence (nope). A pretty clear "division" there, right? Notice how much more "tonnage" of forage there is beyond that nearer to the fence swath? That's because pretty early in the growing season (around May 15) I sprayed this area closest to the fence with my boom on the sprayer on my 4 wheeler, to clear out those broadleaves, but I DIDN'T spray that far ditch bank. The GRASS got set back from the 2-4D. It's much shorter there, and it's not headed out. Is that what we want happening in our pastures? What affect would this strategy have on the good forage growing capacity of our pasture? What affect would it have on the FUTURE forage growing capabilities of the pasture, in coming years? What effect would it have on the encroachment of other forbes, instead of grasses, into our pasture, in the future? 2-4D is SUPPOSED to be "safe" for your grasses, right... won't "take them out"... (i.e.: it won't KILL grass... that doesn't mean it won't have any EFFECT on grass). Consider if you get 2-4D on corn, which is a tropical grass... what happens? It bends and grows sideways to the ground. Still think that these kind of herbicides won't/don't have any negative impacts on your pasture grass?

And of course, the "broadleaves" there STILL came back again. Notice that broadleaf right behind the fiberglass post? Notice the dead brown leaves on the very top? That plant APPEARED to be dead after that first spray pass, but it came back. Should I have mixed the 2-4D at a higher rate than the recommended rate... go "off-label"? Maybe... and that MAYBE would have successfully killed that broadleaf. But it would have set back the grass even further too.



The bending of corn stems caused by 2,4-D is called epinasty.

In plant physiology, epinasty refers to the downward or inward bending of plant parts, such as leaves or stems, in response to growth inhibition or hormonal imbalance. In corn, when 2,4-D (a synthetic auxin) is applied at the wrong growth stage, it disrupts normal auxin distribution, leading to uneven cell elongation. This causes the stem to bend or “gooseneck” toward the side of the plant where growth is inhibited passel.

This effect is part of a broader set of symptoms from auxinic herbicide injury, which can also include stunting, leaf cupping, stem twisting, and brittle stems passel+1. In corn, epinasty is often accompanied by other issues like fused or malformed brace roots, reduced stem strength, and increased risk of “green snap” from wind Crop Protection Network.

Key points:

• Term: Epinasty (stem bending toward the side of growth inhibition)
• Cause: Misapplication of 2,4-D or other auxinic herbicides
• Mechanism: Disruption of auxin balance, leading to uneven cell elongation
• Other symptoms: Stunting, leaf cupping, brace root malformation, brittle stems passel+1

If you see corn stems bending or leaning after herbicide application, epinasty is the specific term for that bending, and it’s a sign of auxinic herbicide injury.

 

[Warren Allison]

The original poster asked about what to spray for hard woods, briars and weeds. In the south, cattle will not "graze" the leaves off of briars just like they won't eat bull nettles. mesquite trees or honey locust. You spray them or you use some mechanical way to get rid of them. Mowing them does nothing but encourage more ground hugging growth. Trying to fertilize the grass to will also fertilize the stuff you don't want and make it stronger and harder to kill.

Putting cattle on a over grown brush infested place will help but won't eliminate the problems. Goats will though.

Corrientes will. Ours loved Kudzu more than anything but they'd eat honeysuckle, black berry, and young bamboo.

 

[simme]

My beliefs on herbicides - better to use herbicides when the weeds are small than when they are 2 feet tall. Use the herbicide that is labeled for the weed you want to kill. Better to use herbicides at the recommended rate than a much higher rate. My thought is that a high rate or adding diesel to the spray may burn the plant tissue quickly. And burnt up plant tissue will slow or stop the transfer of the herbicide to the roots. The herbicide needs to kill the roots in order to kill the plant - at least for some weeds. That requires the above ground part of the plant to live long enough to get the herbicide to the root. The idea that more is better may not be correct. If more was better, I expect the label would say to use more since that makes more $$ for the manufacturer. Labels say what weeds can be controlled, what weeds can be suppressed, when to spray, rates of herbicide and water to use and other things. Need to be aware of the info on the label. Also need to be aware of herbicide resistance that some weeds have developed. I think that may be somewhat regional. But remember that trucked in hay or grain can bring you new weeds.

I have no special training or education on herbicides. I may be completely wrong on my thoughts. But I do know that in this area, we would have to surrender to thistle, pigweed and buttercup if we did not use herbicides. Or commit to regular and repetitive mowing. Maybe it don't work that way in other places. But I have not been able to teach my cows to eat buttercup, horse nettle, thistle, or briars. Some weeds are toxic so forcing cows to eat them may have consequences.

 

[anewcomer]

Well said, Simme.

 

[kenny thomas]

Very good post. For a lot of years I kept my commercial pesticide license and some of what Simme said was what I learned. Spraying the recommended amount of the correct product at the correct time. Dont use a double dose of 24D thinking it will kill everything. Fall is the best time to spray for thistle and buttercup because they have sprouted and are small and tender. Next year's briars are already growing now.

 

[bird dog]

Using plain 2 4 D will work but not as well if mixed with herbicide that has some residual. Next time RDFF, use a Dicamba 2 4 D combo like Weedmaster. Here is a picture of a small field I sprayed May 12. I ran out of fluid with about a acre left and never went back to finish. This pic was taken a few days ago when I went over to move the cows to the next field.

 

[RNW]

If it were me, and I'm usually wrong about most stuff.... if you can already mow it and it's 35 acres (not huge), I'd let the cattle out on it and mow twice a year for a couple years and see what happens - unless you think there's something toxic out there. While often wrong, I've found that cattle and a brush hog can do a ton of work for you and, frankly, have never found a way to avoid brushhogging anyway just to keep the grass refreshing. But, I typically advise people to do the opposite of what I would do....

yikes, thats what i have done on 10 acres the same...good results but trees are coming back, but grass is also good....may try bushhoging twice a summer, cattle grazing, and then re-evaluate...prolly gonna spot spray some....thanks for your advice..really... kinda what i'm thinking, new to starting to spray...although it looks like it is coming on some of my pastures

 

[RNW]

Very good post. For a lot of years I kept my commercial pesticide license and some of what Simme said was what I learned. Spraying the recommended amount of the correct product at the correct time. Dont use a double dose of 24D thinking it will kill everything. Fall is the best time to spray for thistle and buttercup because they have sprouted and are small and tender. Next year's briars are already growing now.

got all of the above you mentioned also...thanks

 

[RNW]

My beliefs on herbicides - better to use herbicides when the weeds are small than when they are 2 feet tall. Use the herbicide that is labeled for the weed you want to kill. Better to use herbicides at the recommended rate than a much higher rate. My thought is that a high rate or adding diesel to the spray may burn the plant tissue quickly. And burnt up plant tissue will slow or stop the transfer of the herbicide to the roots. The herbicide needs to kill the roots in order to kill the plant - at least for some weeds. That requires the above ground part of the plant to live long enough to get the herbicide to the root. The idea that more is better may not be correct. If more was better, I expect the label would say to use more since that makes more $$ for the manufacturer. Labels say what weeds can be controlled, what weeds can be suppressed, when to spray, rates of herbicide and water to use and other things. Need to be aware of the info on the label. Also need to be aware of herbicide resistance that some weeds have developed. I think that may be somewhat regional. But remember that trucked in hay or grain can bring you new weeds.

I have no special training or education on herbicides. I may be completely wrong on my thoughts. But I do know that in this area, we would have to surrender to thistle, pigweed and buttercup if we did not use herbicides. Or commit to regular and repetitive mowing. Maybe it don't work that way in other places. But I have not been able to teach my cows to eat buttercup, horse nettle, thistle, or briars. Some weeds are toxic so forcing cows to eat them may have consequences.

thanks bro, let me know when or if you train you cows to eat buttercup and thistles...you could become a millionaire and my hero...thanks for all the info..really...i am a work in progress here