native grass

[cowtrek]

Yes overgrazing is overgrazing, and it is detrimental to both natives and improved grasses, but generally speaking, overgrazing is harder on natives than improved grasses. Native grasses generally grow slower and are less competitive, in general terms, than most improved grasses that tend to spread and colonize and grow more quickly. I'm not saying that natives cannot produce equal or greater amounts of forage, just that, as a rule, they grow slower. Anything that grows slower than a faster growing plant is by definition less competitive, not including plants that can simply out-reproduce other plants. That is why, generally speaking, natives take longer to establish, longer to grow to full yield, and must not be grazed too low. They take longer to grow and so must have more leaves left to recover. Productionwise, natives can yield pretty close to improved grasses, and on very little external inputs compared to improved grasses, but when you look at it strictly on tons/acre, TDN, and protien levels, the natives are lower. But consider what you've saved too.
Kinda like back when I was farming cotton. We only spent $100 an acre or so to put in a crop. Some years we made 3/4 bale/acre, some years 2 1/2 bales per acre, depending on the timeliness and kindness of the weather, and what the Good Lord chose to give us. Some neighbors spend over $300 an acre to produce cotton. But ya know what? In a bad year (too dry or too wet or bad rain timing) they could end up making 3/4 bale/acre cotton too. Sure in a good year they might make closer to 3 bale cotton, and in an average year when I made 1 to 1 1/2 bale, they made closer to 2 or 2 1/2. BUT, when you figure it took them between 1 and 1 1/2 bales/acre to make it, when it only cost me about 1/2 bale to make my crop, who came out on top? My fertilizer supplier used to say that a lot of guys shoot for "coffee shop yields", big yields to have something to gloat about at the coffee shop or beer joint. He was a big farmer too and owned the fertilizer plant, so he could have shot it to it too, but he realized that the biggest yield isn't always the BEST yield ($$$ return/acre), but the most COST EFFECTIVE yield is always the most profitable (diminishing returns). Not knocking on guys that go all out, they have to pay thier own bills and good luck, but sometimes the bestest ain't the mostest. Good luck, JR

 

[Bernard]

I see people are looking to plant bermuda, fescue, orchard grass, timothy, etc., why do people not consider the native grasses for their region, at least in some of their pastures?

That is exactly what some people are doing here in the Texas panhandle. Some of the most desireable land is stuff just coming out of the CRP but if, and only if, it was planted in the old standbys like Buffalograss, Big & Little Bluestem, and Side Oats Gramma. Way too much was planted in Old World Bluestem, which really, is just another introduced, improved grass that needs the same management, and as much extra fertilizer and rain, as bermuda. Someone else mentioned diversity, and that is a good word. Besides controlled grazing on the native stuff, lots of folks put some acreage into winter wheat, supplementing the graze into the spring, and will follow that up with Sudex or some such haygrazer after the wheat plays out. Of course, that requires a little fertilizer, but local manure (anybody see a feedlot around here?) does just about as good as anything. You simply can't stock at improved pasture rates and keep your native grass, that's the bottom line. One year of over-use takes a full year of rest, or 2 or more years of SERIOUSLY cutting back to just get your pasture back to "even". If your pockebook and management style can abide by that, it's a good way to go. Otherwise, you probably need to get on the improved pasture/lotta fertilizer/irrigated bandwagon with most of the crowd. And if that works for you, it ain't bad, either.

 

[Tod Dague]

I see people are looking to plant bermuda, fescue, orchard grass, timothy, etc., why do people not consider the native grasses for their region, at least in some of their pastures? Am I wrong in thinking they could stand up to a drought situation better and provide better nutrition because they are native?
Yes, it has to managed differently during drought than other times, but it doesn't require fertilizing and all of that other stuff.

If there is no water there is no growth no matter what is in the field. I don't know about the others but around here Bermuda is about as tough or tougher than any other grass that I have seen. Native grasses don't require fertilizer because it is going to do what it is going to do despite fertilizer application to a certain point. My brother has a large field of coastal that he doesn't fertilize and he has a much better stocking rate than my native grass leases even during this drought. If you are talking common Bermuda then I really don't see an advantage over the natives.

 

[msscamp]

Thanks for the comments, guys!

 

[milesvb]

I see people are looking to plant bermuda, fescue, orchard grass, timothy, etc., why do people not consider the native grasses for their region, at least in some of their pastures? Am I wrong in thinking they could stand up to a drought situation better and provide better nutrition because they are native?
Yes, it has to managed differently during drought than other times, but it doesn't require fertilizing and all of that other stuff.

If there is no water there is no growth no matter what is in the field. I don't know about the others but around here Bermuda is about as tough or tougher than any other grass that I have seen. Native grasses don't require fertilizer because it is going to do what it is going to do despite fertilizer application to a certain point. My brother has a large field of coastal that he doesn't fertilize and he has a much better stocking rate than my native grass leases even during this drought. If you are talking common Bermuda then I really don't see an advantage over the natives.

You're right about the stocking rate. You can't put the grazing pressure on the natives like you can bermuda, bahia, etc. But, as far as water utilization goes, natives have root systems that can reach down several feet or more to tap moisture that the improved grasses cannot. It boils down to the fact that being native they are adapted to the local conditions and I'm sure their ancestors have seen drought conditions that would make our current situation pale in comparison.

 

[Tod Dague]

I see people are looking to plant bermuda, fescue, orchard grass, timothy, etc., why do people not consider the native grasses for their region, at least in some of their pastures? Am I wrong in thinking they could stand up to a drought situation better and provide better nutrition because they are native?
Yes, it has to managed differently during drought than other times, but it doesn't require fertilizing and all of that other stuff.

If there is no water there is no growth no matter what is in the field. I don't know about the others but around here Bermuda is about as tough or tougher than any other grass that I have seen. Native grasses don't require fertilizer because it is going to do what it is going to do despite fertilizer application to a certain point. My brother has a large field of coastal that he doesn't fertilize and he has a much better stocking rate than my native grass leases even during this drought. If you are talking common Bermuda then I really don't see an advantage over the natives.

You're right about the stocking rate. You can't put the grazing pressure on the natives like you can bermuda, bahia, etc. But, as far as water utilization goes, natives have root systems that can reach down several feet or more to tap moisture that the improved grasses cannot. It boils down to the fact that being native they are adapted to the local conditions and I'm sure their ancestors have seen drought conditions that would make our current situation pale in comparison.

So what you are saying is that the native will grow longer into a drought due to the deeper roots. But isn't it just playing catch-up since it was already behind due to the lower production rates?

A question for any one.
What are some of the management differences that are required for the native grasses? I have both and the only difference that I currently know of is stocking rates. I utilize rotation where I can and set stocking where I have to. I'm not trying to be smart just looking for better ways to manage the land, grass, and $ since I will not be converting the native to improved.

 

[dun]

A question for any one.
What are some of the management differences that are required for the native grasses? I have both and the only difference that I currently know of is stocking rates.

The primary difference would be grazing height. The native WSG typically shouldn;t be grazed shorter then 6 inches maybe 4 for some. It also requires a longer rest before the first killing frost, probably not a concern in your area.

dun

 

[msscamp]

I see people are looking to plant bermuda, fescue, orchard grass, timothy, etc., why do people not consider the native grasses for their region, at least in some of their pastures? Am I wrong in thinking they could stand up to a drought situation better and provide better nutrition because they are native?
Yes, it has to managed differently during drought than other times, but it doesn't require fertilizing and all of that other stuff.

If there is no water there is no growth no matter what is in the field. I don't know about the others but around here Bermuda is about as tough or tougher than any other grass that I have seen. Native grasses don't require fertilizer because it is going to do what it is going to do despite fertilizer application to a certain point. My brother has a large field of coastal that he doesn't fertilize and he has a much better stocking rate than my native grass leases even during this drought. If you are talking common Bermuda then I really don't see an advantage over the natives.

You're right about the stocking rate. You can't put the grazing pressure on the natives like you can bermuda, bahia, etc. But, as far as water utilization goes, natives have root systems that can reach down several feet or more to tap moisture that the improved grasses cannot. It boils down to the fact that being native they are adapted to the local conditions and I'm sure their ancestors have seen drought conditions that would make our current situation pale in comparison.

So what you are saying is that the native will grow longer into a drought due to the deeper roots. But isn't it just playing catch-up since it was already behind due to the lower production rates?

Yes, that is exactly right. In my area the average yearly rainfall is about 10" - how well would the improved grasses stand up to that without irrigation?

 

[Tod Dague]

I see people are looking to plant bermuda, fescue, orchard grass, timothy, etc., why do people not consider the native grasses for their region, at least in some of their pastures? Am I wrong in thinking they could stand up to a drought situation better and provide better nutrition because they are native?
Yes, it has to managed differently during drought than other times, but it doesn't require fertilizing and all of that other stuff.

If there is no water there is no growth no matter what is in the field. I don't know about the others but around here Bermuda is about as tough or tougher than any other grass that I have seen. Native grasses don't require fertilizer because it is going to do what it is going to do despite fertilizer application to a certain point. My brother has a large field of coastal that he doesn't fertilize and he has a much better stocking rate than my native grass leases even during this drought. If you are talking common Bermuda then I really don't see an advantage over the natives.

You're right about the stocking rate. You can't put the grazing pressure on the natives like you can bermuda, bahia, etc. But, as far as water utilization goes, natives have root systems that can reach down several feet or more to tap moisture that the improved grasses cannot. It boils down to the fact that being native they are adapted to the local conditions and I'm sure their ancestors have seen drought conditions that would make our current situation pale in comparison.

So what you are saying is that the native will grow longer into a drought due to the deeper roots. But isn't it just playing catch-up since it was already behind due to the lower production rates?

Yes, that is exactly right. In my area the average yearly rainfall is about 10" - how well would the improved grasses stand up to that without irrigation?

Not long. :lol: It probably wouldn't ever break ground. If you don't mind me asking what is the normal stocking rate for your area? We average a little better than 30" / year.

 

[milesvb]

So what you are saying is that the native will grow longer into a drought due to the deeper roots. But isn't it just playing catch-up since it was already behind due to the lower production rates?

Yes. When the bermuda has gone dormant and begun to die back the natives are still doing ok. Some can tolerate a wide variety of extremes as well. Eastern Gama Grass and some switch grass, for instance, can grow with their roots inundated and stay green after the ground cracks open.

BTW Tod, check your inbox.

 

[Tod Dague]

Anybody have some good websites for Native grass identification, growth patterns, and moisture/fertility requirements.

 

[Tod Dague]

So what you are saying is that the native will grow longer into a drought due to the deeper roots. But isn't it just playing catch-up since it was already behind due to the lower production rates?

Yes. When the bermuda has gone dormant and begun to die back the natives are still doing ok. Some can tolerate a wide variety of extremes as well. Eastern Gama Grass and some switch grass, for instance, can grow with their roots inundated and stay green after the ground cracks open.

BTW Tod, check your inbox.

Thanks

 

[msscamp]

I see people are looking to plant bermuda, fescue, orchard grass, timothy, etc., why do people not consider the native grasses for their region, at least in some of their pastures? Am I wrong in thinking they could stand up to a drought situation better and provide better nutrition because they are native?
Yes, it has to managed differently during drought than other times, but it doesn't require fertilizing and all of that other stuff.

If there is no water there is no growth no matter what is in the field. I don't know about the others but around here Bermuda is about as tough or tougher than any other grass that I have seen. Native grasses don't require fertilizer because it is going to do what it is going to do despite fertilizer application to a certain point. My brother has a large field of coastal that he doesn't fertilize and he has a much better stocking rate than my native grass leases even during this drought. If you are talking common Bermuda then I really don't see an advantage over the natives.

You're right about the stocking rate. You can't put the grazing pressure on the natives like you can bermuda, bahia, etc. But, as far as water utilization goes, natives have root systems that can reach down several feet or more to tap moisture that the improved grasses cannot. It boils down to the fact that being native they are adapted to the local conditions and I'm sure their ancestors have seen drought conditions that would make our current situation pale in comparison.

So what you are saying is that the native will grow longer into a drought due to the deeper roots. But isn't it just playing catch-up since it was already behind due to the lower production rates?

Yes, that is exactly right. In my area the average yearly rainfall is about 10" - how well would the improved grasses stand up to that without irrigation?

If you don't mind me asking what is the normal stocking rate for your area? We average a little better than 30" / year.

33 acres/animal. Lord, I'm not sure we would know what to do with 30" of rain/year, but it sure would be fun to find out! :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[msscamp]

Anybody have some good websites for Native grass identification, growth patterns, and moisture/fertility requirements.

I'm not sure what part of Texas your in, but hopefully this link will help. If you google "Identifying Native Grasses + Texas", you'll find quite a bit of information. I hope this helps!

http://uvalde.tamu.edu/pdf/2002/025-website.pdf

 

[Tod Dague]

Thanks msscamp. ;-) We doubled our annual rainfall a couple of years ago. I were a smart man I would have been bailing grass.

 

[Bluestem]

Noble.org is a good one.

 

[msscamp]

Thanks msscamp. ;-) We doubled our annual rainfall a couple of years ago. I were a smart man I would have been bailing grass.

Welcome! I guess I can't read, your member ID clearly states central Texas, but danged if I could see it when I looked prior to posting that link! :lol: :lol: :lol: Don't be too hard on yourself, after all, hindsight is 20/20. ;-)

 

[stocky]

Native grass establishment has been encouraged by government programs for years. Where I am, it is hilly and rocky with some river and creek bottom land. We are always told it is ideal for native grass. Almost every cattle farmer I know has tried the native grass route and most have even gotten government help for establishment. I only know of one field that is still in native grass and it was cut for hay a couple of years, never pastured and then the farm sold and there has never been a hoof on it since. Reasons that no one has been able to establish it around here are: It has to be planted at the wrong time of year for our rainfall. The last several years, we have had bad droughts in the summer and the grass either didnt come up or died from lack of water. It is very expensive and labor intensive for the planting, so after 2 or 3 tries, people give up. If a person does get some going, there isnt a good enough stand to limit the grazing, so it gets killed out. And the main reason is nothing grows like fescue here and you can buy fescue seed, throw it on top of the ground and you will get a stand, almost every time, so people always go back to fescue. There are lots of advantages to having native grass, but people here havent been able to afford the cost and going without using a piece of ground year after year to get an established stand.

 

[msscamp]

Thanks for your post, Stocky.

 

[redangus]

I have bahia grass creeping into my pastures more and more all the time. I think it is a domestic grass. Bahia seems to be more drought tolerant...it was tested in 2005...and doesn't seem to need as much fertilizer. You have much experience with it?