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fourstates
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Thanks, Brandon. Good advise. I'm just a little frustrated.
Mysterious Mo
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fourstates
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Mo is the same. I am trying to leave him alone. As long as he continues to eat and is still able to get up and down, I will leave him alone. I hate for him to suffer, but I hate for him to go to waste, too. Will update if there is any change. Thanks to all.
bward
Well-known member
This drives me bonkers. You treated Mo on Sunday and by Monday he was doing cartwheels. Wednesday he is down again which is about the same time the Nuflor wore off and the Dex was long gone. Wasn't the fact that he improved the next day after treatment testament to the fact that the medication was working? Why would you not continue treatment for at least a week or 10 days knowing that one treatment was not enough? Why just "give up"? One vet said it was naval ill and you got a clue to that finding some pus and the fact that the calfs white cell count was slightly elevated. He is obviously fighting something and has the will to live so why not help him out?
You already spent 9 months feeding his mother whats a few more bucks?
I am always ready to put down a non save-able calf but Mo isn't there yet. JMHO
You already spent 9 months feeding his mother whats a few more bucks?
I am always ready to put down a non save-able calf but Mo isn't there yet. JMHO
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fourstates
Well-known member
Bward. if this is driving you bonkers, think how I feel!
Vet3 was convinced that the calf was turning cartwheels due to the Dex, he said that "sealed it" as far as he was concerned, that it is autoimmune. Also all the antibiotics I had pumped into him had lowered his red count. So this is a tricky situation. Can't continue giving the calf steriods, because I will destroy his immune system and do further damage to his joints. Can't keep hitting him with antibiotics and pain meds, cause the antibiotics (any) can damage red blood cells. But I am also aware that Vet3, might also be as right or wrong as Vet1 or Vet2.
So let me add some more info to the mystery of Mo. Mo's Dam had severe bloody mastitis. He and she became very ill a few days after birth. I worked very hard to keep both animals going. It does seem possible to me that all that early exposure to the septic milk, the antibiotics I gave the cow and calf, could have damaged his immune system and did cause an autoimmune response.
But it does seem just as possible that Mo is now infected with a "superbug" version of an infection.....So..now I am doing some waiting.
Vet3 was convinced that the calf was turning cartwheels due to the Dex, he said that "sealed it" as far as he was concerned, that it is autoimmune. Also all the antibiotics I had pumped into him had lowered his red count. So this is a tricky situation. Can't continue giving the calf steriods, because I will destroy his immune system and do further damage to his joints. Can't keep hitting him with antibiotics and pain meds, cause the antibiotics (any) can damage red blood cells. But I am also aware that Vet3, might also be as right or wrong as Vet1 or Vet2.
So let me add some more info to the mystery of Mo. Mo's Dam had severe bloody mastitis. He and she became very ill a few days after birth. I worked very hard to keep both animals going. It does seem possible to me that all that early exposure to the septic milk, the antibiotics I gave the cow and calf, could have damaged his immune system and did cause an autoimmune response.
But it does seem just as possible that Mo is now infected with a "superbug" version of an infection.....So..now I am doing some waiting.
I might have missed it, but... are any of Mo's joints swollen? you mentioned there was a navel infection. Joint infection too? my vet mentioned bacteria can enter through the navel or mouth (consider Mo's dam with mastitis) and localize in the joints.
Wonder why Vet3 was convinced it's an autoimmune disease because Mo felt better after being given antibiotics and dex? Dexamethasone will make a calf feel better... doesn't necessarily mean it has an auto immune disease though.
Wonder why Vet3 was convinced it's an autoimmune disease because Mo felt better after being given antibiotics and dex? Dexamethasone will make a calf feel better... doesn't necessarily mean it has an auto immune disease though.
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fourstates
Well-known member
Milkmaid! I am so glad to hear from you!
The calf is very large boned and has big joints. No joint feels any bigger, or puffy and I do not feel "heat". But I do think the problem is in his front legs, particularly his knees. I am noticing now (new development) he does not fully extend his right knee.
I have tried to take a still pic...too bad I can't video his gait!
As he shifts his weight there is a curvature behind his knee.
I wish I could get what I see on film better! But he does not put weight on his front right side. What started "slo" is becoming more of a significant limp.
The calf is very large boned and has big joints. No joint feels any bigger, or puffy and I do not feel "heat". But I do think the problem is in his front legs, particularly his knees. I am noticing now (new development) he does not fully extend his right knee.
I have tried to take a still pic...too bad I can't video his gait!
As he shifts his weight there is a curvature behind his knee.
I wish I could get what I see on film better! But he does not put weight on his front right side. What started "slo" is becoming more of a significant limp.
He sure is a nice big boned calf. 
Well, at least what I can see from the side, the right knee appears okay. Compare that to a calf I've got that had (I hope that's still past tense) a septic carpal joint (means infected knee -- I'm having fun trying out my new vet lingo :lol2...
Left front knee on the calf above is the one infected.
With Mo... and I am not a vet by any means, just a wannabe, LOL... my best guess at this point is for you to take him off all antibiotics and anti-inflammatories, and just see what happens. He's been majorly drugged up for a long time and he may have to come off all drugs for awhile to get the real problem to show up. Sometimes having an animal on antibiotics prevents problems from showing up... for instance, I had a cow a few years back with a bad case of footrot that abcessed, and in order to get it to burst and drain I had to take her off antibiotics for a week or so.
I agree that it does appear something's not right in the front end... when he stands he puts quite a bit of weight on his hindquarters; note how his hind legs are underneath him. How do his elbows and shoulders feel? underside of the hoof? it could be the problem isn't in the knee. On the other hand though, he's in good condition and appears alert, which implies he's not in alot of pain. Pain takes a lot of energy, and generally animals that are hurting will be thin and smaller than their contemporaries. Mo looks good. IMO you can just play wait-n-see without being concerned he's in serious pain and suffering, at least at this point.
Well, at least what I can see from the side, the right knee appears okay. Compare that to a calf I've got that had (I hope that's still past tense
) a septic carpal joint (means infected knee -- I'm having fun trying out my new vet lingo :lol2...Left front knee on the calf above is the one infected.
With Mo... and I am not a vet by any means, just a wannabe, LOL... my best guess at this point is for you to take him off all antibiotics and anti-inflammatories, and just see what happens. He's been majorly drugged up for a long time and he may have to come off all drugs for awhile to get the real problem to show up. Sometimes having an animal on antibiotics prevents problems from showing up... for instance, I had a cow a few years back with a bad case of footrot that abcessed, and in order to get it to burst and drain I had to take her off antibiotics for a week or so.
I agree that it does appear something's not right in the front end... when he stands he puts quite a bit of weight on his hindquarters; note how his hind legs are underneath him. How do his elbows and shoulders feel? underside of the hoof? it could be the problem isn't in the knee. On the other hand though, he's in good condition and appears alert, which implies he's not in alot of pain. Pain takes a lot of energy, and generally animals that are hurting will be thin and smaller than their contemporaries. Mo looks good. IMO you can just play wait-n-see without being concerned he's in serious pain and suffering, at least at this point.
rockridgecattle
Well-known member
We had a calf with navel ill, actually a few. The first one however was bad. We did not realize how dillegent you had to be to treat it. It got into the joints and we continued to treat it over and over again. It would be on a 7 day course of treatment. Be better by the third day, but we continued so as to be sure the infection was gone. Within a few days he was bad again. We tried 10 days again in a few days bad again. Eventually he was unable to walk much and was in alot of pain. He ate well, got to about 500+ pounds, alot of drugs and extra feed, special care. Eventually at the vets recommendation we put him down. He could not walk well, developed back problems because of the walking, it was a mess.
the calf had been off medication well past the normal withdrawl times. My husband was going to butcher it. Vet told him not to eat it cause the infeciton had probably damaged the tissue and would be condemnd. So he asked about killing for the dogs. Vet said it would make the dogs sick. It ended up in the back of a neighbors pick up truck. This neighbor baits cyoted and timber wolves. So much for all the drugs, extra feed, and the cost to raise the cow.
This story and another about a bull and an absess, caused my husband and i to re evaluate our vet bills. Now we have a limit on each animal that we are willing to spend, dictated by the market. We involve our vet in our decisions, phone calls are free, and take the animal to her when needed, and give each sick animal a fighting chance, after that, it's sink or swim. It's a hard call to make, and hard to put into action, but, sometimes we have to do what we have to do.
the calf had been off medication well past the normal withdrawl times. My husband was going to butcher it. Vet told him not to eat it cause the infeciton had probably damaged the tissue and would be condemnd. So he asked about killing for the dogs. Vet said it would make the dogs sick. It ended up in the back of a neighbors pick up truck. This neighbor baits cyoted and timber wolves. So much for all the drugs, extra feed, and the cost to raise the cow.
This story and another about a bull and an absess, caused my husband and i to re evaluate our vet bills. Now we have a limit on each animal that we are willing to spend, dictated by the market. We involve our vet in our decisions, phone calls are free, and take the animal to her when needed, and give each sick animal a fighting chance, after that, it's sink or swim. It's a hard call to make, and hard to put into action, but, sometimes we have to do what we have to do.
