Mini's

[shortybreeder]

I am thinking about getting some mini herefords or mini (lowline) angus heifers/cows so that I can raise their calves for grass-fed beef. Has anyone tried this on here? Seems like if you want to have an effective grass-finished operation then you need smaller framed cattle that finish and mature quickly, and I don't know much about the maturation of the mini breeds, but I do know it's hard to get a smaller frame size than a bull that is only about 3 1/2 feet tall bred to a cow that is about 3 feet tall. We are 100% A.I. and the company we use has at least 3 mini hereford options and at least 1 lowline angus option. I was thinking having mini-hereford cows and breeding them to the lowline for an F1 cross that will really blow the grass-fed operation out of the water! If both breeds are efficient with grass, imagine what the F1 could do? :shock:

 

[shortybreeder]

The plan would be to direct-market the beef at local farmer's markets and through craigslist. I think the lighter carcass weights would be advantageous for this because then people don't have to buy as much beef in a half or quarter, and it will be easier to convince them that they do have room in their freezer for it.

 

[WalnutCrest]

Lowline Angus don't have any genetic dwarfism.

There are many grass - efficient breeds out there. If you are selling finished beef direct to the consumer hide color should be very low on your list of desired traits.

My suggestion is to source many different breeds and taste them all without sauces, seasonings or other flavor enhancers. Breed cattle that taste good... which is FAR different than cattle that looks the way the butcher wants to see it.

 

[Taurus]

My suggestion is to source many different breeds and taste them all without sauces, seasonings or other flavor enhancers. Breed cattle that taste good... which is FAR different than cattle that looks the way the butcher wants to see it.

:bs: :bs: :bs:

It doesn't have to do anything with a breed that tastes different from another breed. And there are lot of variables within a breed that caused beef that tastes good or bad. Best steak and worst steak I had came from same breed and both steers have same sire.

 

[WalnutCrest]

My suggestion is to source many different breeds and taste them all without sauces, seasonings or other flavor enhancers. Breed cattle that taste good... which is FAR different than cattle that looks the way the butcher wants to see it.

:bs: :bs: :bs:

It doesn't have to do anything with a breed that tastes different from another breed. And there are lot of variables within a breed that caused beef that tastes good or bad. Best steak and worst steak I had came from same breed and both steers have same sire.

Yes, there are many factors that impact flavor --- genetics, management/environment, butchering/aging, and preparation.

Regarding being able to identify groups / breeds / crosses that consistently taste better than another ... what can I say ... your experience is different than mine. The different experiences may have come from the genetics of different cow families, different management or environmental issues, an antsy animal running down the alleyway to his doom at the butcher, slightly different aging techniques (if one was the first one in the locker it'll taste different than if it's the last one in the locker for the day), etc. Heck, was one injured or ill more often than the other ... that can have a HUGE difference in your dining experience.

Consistently high palatability is a big deal when selling direct to the customer.

 

[shortybreeder]

Neither of them have genetic dwarfism (according to mini hereford association and lowline registry websites) and that's not what I am looking for. I'm just thinking that the average consumer only knows a few terms when it comes to buying beef; Angus, grass-fed, organic, corn-fed, and hormones/steroids/antibiotics/implants. With the Lowline Angus influencing it I can put that in the ad and they will recognize one key word that they know, then they will recognize the grass-fed keywords, and then I will also refrain from using implants, which is another key word. It won't be hard to convince them to give it a try. Also by having the mini hereford mom and genetic diversity I can still take advantage of the F1 heterosis (in the finishing steers and replacement heifers). If I had access to some Square Meaters then I could throw that in there for some more heterosis. I also know a few people in our area who raise Scottish Highlanders for grass-fed beef, but they take about 3 years to finish because they have a (relatively) larger frame size. I also know a guy who raises british white's for grass-fed beef but when I toured his farm, I really didn't like the looks or condition of his cows (he claimed it was because they were in the weaning process, but I have never had animals that skinny with calves that small at-side).

Walnutcrest, how do the Aubrac's do? How long do they usually take to reach a decent butchering weight on grass? How big are the cows? What are some of their advantages? Can they handle cold temps?

 

[WalnutCrest]

I'm happy to answer whatever questions you have about Aubracs ... I wasn't trying to hijack your thread. If you'd rather discuss offline or privately rather than gunk up this thread, feel free to do so. Since I don't know much about mini Herefords, I didn't offer anything on that part of your idea.

So -- Aubracs do great on grass; the US breeders use the phrase "Grassfed Greatness" to try to summarize a long list of positive traits into an easy to remember phrase ... the French breeders say "one calf, per cow, per year" ... both are applicable. It's not uncommon to have cows well into their teens or early 20s calving annually on a forage-only system. I have four 12 year-old halfbloods I'm using for recips and two others who are over 10 (both of whom I'm hoping to flush later this year). Longevity and fertility are well-established breed traits.

Regarding "decent butchering weight" ... some guys butcher right off the cows at 6-9 months ... others grow them out for their own freezers for as long as 3-4 years. I do a bit of both --- I'll have some 'young beef', and will also butcher steers at 12-18 months, 2-3 years, and 4+ years ... some of my buyers like more flavor and others more tenderness. To give a sense of size, mature fullblood cows are 1200-1300 pounds or so on average and in average condition and mature bulls would be 1800-2500 pounds ... each would have an average framescore of 5.0.

Regarding the advantages of an Aubrac cowherd, they are the #1 of all Fench breeds for calving ease. This is particularly noteworthy since the majority of Aubrac cows are bred in a terminal cross program with double-muscled Charolais bulls for a very highly regarded branded beef program (Fleur d'Aubrac). They have high butterfat content milk (research indicates it's around 4.2%, which is comparable to Brown Swiss as 4.0%, Guernsey at 4.5%, Hostein/Fresien at 2.6-3.5%, Jerseys at 4.9% and milking Shorthorns at 3.8% -- I got this data here for the other breeds).

Regarding their ability to handle extreme winter weather -- the two largest purebred Aubrac-based herds in North America are in Montana. They hair-up well, are not afraid to shove the snow aside, and are very (!) feed efficient. Each guy can put whatever amount of stock they want in this, but, just yesterday I spoke with a rep from Igenity; he pulled the data out of their system and told me that the average of all Aubracs in the system for "relative feed intake" was 4.6 and the average for all Black Angus in the database is 6.6 (lower numbers mean more efficient) -- meaning the average Aubrac will consume 0.9 fewer pounds of feed per day to achieve the same average daily gain as the average Angus. The guy with the second largest Aubrac herd in the US also runs a large commercial Angus operation; the Aubracs are his key to reducing his input costs.

Regarding their ability to handle extreme summer weather -- due to their coloring, their internal body temperatures are lower in the hottest parts of the day ... my experience with these cattle have shown the darkest-furred animals of other breeds hiding in the shade while these are grazing when it's really hot/humid.

Below is a picture of our best cow -- not a great picture, but you get a sense for what she's all about. Her name is Violet and she's 8yrs old here, early in the 2nd trimester. Deep body, wedge shape, and very feminine.

The bull below is Maximus -- he was sired by the same bull as Violet, and their mothers are full sisters. He is the most well-known Aubrac bull calved out in the US. He's swimming around in our semen tank right now. Deep body, well-defined musculature, and very masculine. Sexual differentiation is high in this breed.

 

[branguscowgirl]

Shorty, I like your ideas! However, I think I disagree with your comment about "an effective grass finishing operation needing smaller framed cattle." Look at my grass fed Brangus cow in the "Biggest cow thread." ;-)

 

[branguscowgirl]

I'm happy to answer whatever questions you have about Aubracs ... I wasn't trying to hijack your thread. If you'd rather discuss offline or privately rather than gunk up this thread, feel free to do so. Since I don't know much about mini Herefords, I didn't offer anything on that part of your idea.

So -- Aubracs do great on grass; the US breeders use the phrase "Grassfed Greatness" to try to summarize a long list of positive traits into an easy to remember phrase ... the French breeders say "one calf, per cow, per year" ... both are applicable. It's not uncommon to have cows well into their teens or early 20s calving annually on a forage-only system. I have four 12 year-old halfbloods I'm using for recips and two others who are over 10 (both of whom I'm hoping to flush later this year). Longevity and fertility are well-established breed traits.

Regarding "decent butchering weight" ... some guys butcher right off the cows at 6-9 months ... others grow them out for their own freezers for as long as 3-4 years. I do a bit of both --- I'll have some 'young beef', and will also butcher steers at 12-18 months, 2-3 years, and 4+ years ... some of my buyers like more flavor and others more tenderness. To give a sense of size, mature fullblood cows are 1200-1300 pounds or so on average and in average condition and mature bulls would be 1800-2500 pounds ... each would have an average framescore of 5.0.

Regarding the advantages of an Aubrac cowherd, they are the #1 of all Fench breeds for calving ease. This is particularly noteworthy since the majority of Aubrac cows are bred in a terminal cross program with double-muscled Charolais bulls for a very highly regarded branded beef program (Fleur d'Aubrac). They have high butterfat content milk (research indicates it's around 4.2%, which is comparable to Brown Swiss as 4.0%, Guernsey at 4.5%, Hostein/Fresien at 2.6-3.5%, Jerseys at 4.9% and milking Shorthorns at 3.8% -- I got this data here for the other breeds).

Regarding their ability to handle extreme winter weather -- the two largest purebred Aubrac-based herds in North America are in Montana. They hair-up well, are not afraid to shove the snow aside, and are very (!) feed efficient. Each guy can put whatever amount of stock they want in this, but, just yesterday I spoke with a rep from Igenity; he pulled the data out of their system and told me that the average of all Aubracs in the system for "relative feed intake" was 4.6 and the average for all Black Angus in the database is 6.6 (lower numbers mean more efficient) -- meaning the average Aubrac will consume 0.9 fewer pounds of feed per day to achieve the same average daily gain as the average Angus. The guy with the second largest Aubrac herd in the US also runs a large commercial Angus operation; the Aubracs are his key to reducing his input costs.

Regarding their ability to handle extreme summer weather -- due to their coloring, their internal body temperatures are lower in the hottest parts of the day ... my experience with these cattle have shown the darkest-furred animals of other breeds hiding in the shade while these are grazing when it's really hot/humid.

Below is a picture of our best cow -- not a great picture, but you get a sense for what she's all about. Her name is Violet and she's 8yrs old here, early in the 2nd trimester. Deep body, wedge shape, and very feminine.

The bull below is Maximus -- he was sired by the same bull as Violet, and their mothers are full sisters. He is the most well-known Aubrac bull calved out in the US. He's swimming around in our semen tank right now. Deep body, well-defined musculature, and very masculine. Sexual differentiation is high in this breed.

Beautiful cattle Walnutcrest!

 

[WalnutCrest]

Beautiful cattle Walnutcrest!

Thank you. Not everyone has seen Aubracs before ... and like all breeds, some are better than others. I think I've got a pretty high quality group here. Again, thanks for saying as much.

To shortybreeder ... did I answer your questions?

 

[cow pollinater]

Not trying to badmouth you or your breed WalnutCrest but those cattle would sell for about 30-50 cents a pound here for being jersey influenced because of the markings.

 

[WalnutCrest]

If you're not trying to badmouth me or my cattle by telling me that they wouldn't sell well at the sale barn in your town, what are you trying to do? These are some nice cattle (even if they don't have a black hide).

PS -- Aubracs are not "jersey influenced". They're one of the oldest breeds around. Google is your friend.

 

[branguscowgirl]

Not trying to badmouth you or your breed WalnutCrest but those cattle would sell for about 30-50 cents a pound here for being jersey influenced because of the markings.

Why does this stuff NEED to be said. I don't get it! Don't we all have a love for cattle? What happened to respect for other peoples preferences? :bang:

 

[djinwa]

Not trying to badmouth you or your breed WalnutCrest but those cattle would sell for about 30-50 cents a pound here for being jersey influenced because of the markings.

I am fascinated to no end at the complete and utter inability of some to imagine a scenario in which cattle are sold outside of a salebarn.

Believe it or not, salebarns and feedlots have not existed forever, and believe it or not, some people eat their cattle without first taking them to a salebarn.

Therefore, such people do not have to paint their cattle the color required to get the better prices at salebarns.

I hope this has helped inform people about the world outside of salebarns and feedlots.

 

[KNERSIE]

There was no malice in CP's post, he just stated his experience, he also didn't say a single negative thing about the cattle, just commented on how they will be perceived at the salebarn by those looking to discount cattle to make more profit themselves.

 

[shortybreeder]

Walnutcrest, that is good stuff to know! I have a crossbred cow (we don't know what she is made up of) but when my dad tried using her as a dairy cow he had the milk tested and she scored like a 3.3 protein (herd average is less than 3.0, so really good!) and she scored like a 4.5% butterfat, which is equal to a slightly above average guernsey (in our experience they usually top out at 4.2%, but I'm sure your source is credible). Only problem with her was she maxed out at 30 lbs per day as a fresh heifer, half of what she needed to do, so then I got to take possession of her. All it costs me is that when she calves my dad gets to put a beef X calf on her with my calf that I get from her. So far that hasn't slowed her down at all, and she weans off 2 calves the same size as other young cows (she's only about 5 yrs old). How heavy are the Aubrac's that you butcher right off the cow? What kind of $/lb do you get for the processed beef? How about their dressing percentages?

 

[WalnutCrest]

Walnutcrest, that is good stuff to know! I have a crossbred cow (we don't know what she is made up of) but when my dad tried using her as a dairy cow he had the milk tested and she scored like a 3.3 protein (herd average is less than 3.0, so really good!) and she scored like a 4.5% butterfat, which is equal to a slightly above average guernsey (in our experience they usually top out at 4.2%, but I'm sure your source is credible).

...no idea if the link I gave was legit or not; just thought it simpler than linking to several breed association sites requiring someone to look through everything...

Only problem with her was she maxed out at 30 lbs per day as a fresh heifer, half of what she needed to do, so then I got to take possession of her. All it costs me is that when she calves my dad gets to put a beef X calf on her with my calf that I get from her. So far that hasn't slowed her down at all, and she weans off 2 calves the same size as other young cows (she's only about 5 yrs old).

Getting free cattle in exchange for helping someone else out can be a really good trade. I once got a couple of steers from a guy in exchange for custom grazing some of his heifers and running them with our Aubrac bull for about six weeks.

How heavy are the Aubrac's that you butcher right off the cow? What kind of $/lb do you get for the processed beef? How about their dressing percentages?

How heavy ... well, good question. As you'd expect, the answer really depends on your management and how early you wean. So, with fullbloods and in a grass only (no creep / no grain) system where they're weaned at 7-8mo, you should expect to see 550-775 lbs steers on the hoof (depending on whether weaned right at 7mo or if you waited longer, the animals' genetics, forage quality, milk production of the mama, etc.) (my source = http://www.race-aubrac.com/en/caracteri ... sement.php).

How much do I get for processed beef. Put it to you this way, my wife and I are toying with putting together a program where we'd partner with like-minded producers (no grain, no hormones, no vaccinations, etc) where we'd buy Aubrac steers and heifers from those who buy their Aubrac genetics from us ... at a premium to all other locally-sold-at-the-salebarn steers of a similar size / age (yes, even a higher price to the black ones).

Dressing percentages ... another good question ... bone in? Are roasts left in tact or turned into burger? How are organ meats accounted for? So, in an effort to try to compare apples to apples, as a breed, Aubracs would much meet or beat pretty much all non-double muscled breeds in terms of "red meat yield". According to Igenity, the DNA profile for the Aubrac breed (vs. other more traditional breeds) is that the carcass will have much less fat on the outside of the carcass (which has been borne out with the experience of US breeders) ... yes, marbling and juiciness aren't sacrificed. The flavor is really nice.

LMK if you have any other questions ... again, not trying to hijack your thread on mini herefords, etc. Feel free to contact me privately if you'd prefer. Thanks again for your interest.