mineral school

[Deepsouth]

There needs to be a mineral school to go to. I want to enhance my mineral program. That is if it needs enhancement. There's the problem, how do I know if it needs improving and if so how do I know how to improve it.
When I ask guys around here I get about as many different answers as the number of people I talk to. Most of them simply use whatever the feed store they use sales. Some look for the cheapest. A few say they feed a certain kind because their cows eat it better. That makes me wonder if their not getting enough of what they need.
Also how should I present the minerals? Loose free choice, tub or mixed with feed? If loose free choice should it be put in a weather proof container or just put in a trough? Should I be changing minerals with the seasons or according to the cows condition such as bred or not bred, lactating or dry, you get my point.
I have used Purina wind and rain, Purina all purpose cattle, Nutrina and some others I can't remember right now. I feed loose minerals free choice in a noncovered trough year round. About all I know is to feed high magnesium when their on the rye grass and I use mineral with IGR during spring and summer.
Should I be looking at my soil test results to tell me what to use? What about mineral tubs do they have molasses in them? Can you get protein tubs with adequate minerals? Am I making this to complicated?

 

[Nesikep]

Here, I did a lot of research and did a writeup a while back, it'll give you a start..
www.cattletoday.com/forum/viewtopic.php#p875302

 

[Deepsouth]

Here, I did a lot of research and did a writeup a while back, it'll give you a start..
viewtopic.php#p875302

It won't come up. It says this topic doesn't exist.

 

[Nesikep]

Weirds... lets try this again
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=73928

I tested it and it seemd to work.. I think something happened to my link the first time

 

[Deepsouth]

I got it it now, thanks. You got a lot of info on there I look forward to reading it.

 

[Nesikep]

Took a while to find and compile it into one place, which I had found was really lacking.

I feed a mineral mix that's designed for my area, High phosphorus, copper, and Selenium... I really doubt a "big box" company like Purina can offer that specific a mix... I know a lot of people say "you must have your numbers backward" when I say I feed 6/12 Ca/P mix, but that's what our area needs.

If you can, draw blood from a high producing cow before she goes out with the bull and send that in for analysis, That will be the time she's at her peak mineral requirements with the heavy milking, and will give you the best shot at finding sub-clinical deficiencies... You can find some of them by closely looking at their habits, etc.. chewing on wood, rocks, etc, is often Phosphorus deficiency, Black cows turning red, or red cows getting brindle is often copper, and copper plays important roles in the immune system too... Selenium is retained placentas and weak calves. I discovered that one of my best producing cows would breed back well if she was late, thus being exposed to the bull shortly after calving, but if she calved early, she would have a heck of a time settling... Led me to thinking she was getting depleted of something by milking hard... The whole herd is better off now... Haven't had a case of RP or uterine infection since, which is a great start. Hope it helps

 

[HDRider]

Weirds... lets try this again
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=73928

I tested it and it seemd to work.. I think something happened to my link the first time

Thanks for that. Handy source. Good job.

 

[Lucky_P]

Deepsouth -
From here in the frigid northland of KY, just across the TN line, I'll remind everyone that mineral needs are local, local, local.
Mineral supplementation programs need to be specifically formulated to account for soils/forages/feedstuffs grown or fed in your area.
What works for me here may not really fit the bill for you - and certainly would be lacking some stuff or have too much of others for, say, somebody on the Front Range in Colorado.

Hopefully your state land-grant university has a good nutritionist on staff who can speak intelligently about what specific minerals MUST be supplemented in your area, and recommended levels you need to provide.
Here, Se & Cu are the 'big players', and mineral mixes must provide them in adequate amounts - and in forms that can be absorbed/utilized by the target livestock species; other micronutrients are important, but these are the 'big two' that we see the most problems associated with, when they're deficient.

 

[Deepsouth]

Lucky I understand what your saying and although I haven't read nesikep's paper yet I've seen enough to know he makes the same point. I'm looking at some soil test results from last fall and it shows my soil being high in magnesium. Does this mean that the cattle are getting adequate magnesium through the grass they eat?
Knowing that mineral content in soils varies from soil type to soil type how do feed stores know what minerals to carry. The feed stores are around here don't seem to know anymore about minerals than I do. Each store seems to carry only one brand and it's something high mag for winter and then something with IGR in spring and summer.

 

[Nesikep]

LuckyP, I just looked at the website you list by your info...Murray state university... and took a gander at their large animal panel, and like usual I find it is deficient in itself.. It's really hard to find a place that does a decent workup... They give you cholesterol, and a plethora of other stuff I can't interpret, but fail at the basics... For minerals, they only test Chlorine, Sodium, Potassium, Calcium, Magnesium, and Phosphorus. I don't put much importance on the first 2 because cattle love salt, and can handle a lot of it... It's not a bad price ($8.50) I must say. It is basically a macromineral panel, with a bunch of extras. I did not see a decent trace mineral panel listed though, and that bothers me... In fact, I see it doesn't even have Iron in there

Here's what I'd look for in a trace panel
Copper
Selenium
Cobalt
Molybdenum (if copper is low, otherwise you could probably skip)
Iodine
Iron
Sulfur

 

[Nesikep]

Oh, and if anyone wants the original document, just PM me your email and I'll send it

 

[Chuckie]

Deepsouth, I am not sure if you are close to a Farmer's Co-op, but they have one of the best minerals for cattle that I have found. The Ultimate line is made with chelated and organic vitamins, minerals and trace minerals. It has a higher count of copper and selenium than most. They have several lines of this mineral, with Ultimate being the top of the line as it provides it all. It is a loose mineral.

Here is a list of their minerals:

http://www.ourcoop.com/productcatalog/Main/PdfViewer.aspx?el=67320

 

[dun]

Why not discuss it with your herd health advisor (vet)? He/she won;t have an axe to grind so proabably wont recommend something just for a kickback.

 

[Lucky_P]

Nesikep,
The test/fee schedule on the website is an abomination to me - but, I think what you're looking at is a serum chemistry profile - just like what your physician would have run on you if you were in for your yearly exam or in the hospital for an illness. It's not really intended to be anything more than a 'snapshot' of serum electrolytes/enzymes at that moment in time. Yes,we use it when we're suspecting Ca/Mg problems in cattle, but it's mainly to get an inkling of liver/kidney/pancreatic function at that moment; the electrolyte portions of those panels aren't intended to give an interpretation of nutritional status, but principally kidney function.

While we can run Cu/Se on blood & serum, for most accurate trace mineral analysis, a liver biopsy or liver sample from a deceased/slaughtered animal is the best sample. For many of these micronutrients, blood/serum levels will be 'normal' until all body stores are virtually depleted.
Again, it's local. Iron is not an issue here - we have plenty; I can't recall ever seeing an iron-deficiency anemia in a large animal, and most have plenty of stored iron visible in splenic tissues. Look in the Toxicology section (they do offer Iron analysis on blood/tissue/feed).

 

[TexasBred]

Lucky I understand what your saying and although I haven't read nesikep's paper yet I've seen enough to know he makes the same point. I'm looking at some soil test results from last fall and it shows my soil being high in magnesium. Does this mean that the cattle are getting adequate magnesium through the grass they eat?
Knowing that mineral content in soils varies from soil type to soil type how do feed stores know what minerals to carry. The feed stores are around here don't seem to know anymore about minerals than I do. Each store seems to carry only one brand and it's something high mag for winter and then something with IGR in spring and summer.

That's pretty much true anywhere you go. Most companies don't find it feasible to formulate for specific areas or the local grasses. The simply throw together a batch (12-12-12) usually and then add micro minerals at levels that are generally accepted as the norm......some don't even do it that well. You're more likely to get a custom mineral produced by a smaller feed mill but then you wonder about their ability to actually measure ingredients to the exactness needed and even if they will they'll usually want to run a minimum of a couple of tons to make it worth their while. Some independent consulting nutritionist actually have the facilities to manufacture mineral. YOu might search that out.
Nesi has a unique situation in that he needs elevated phosphorus. Most of our cattle do not need the 12% phos that is formulated into so many minerals. I can certainly formulate minerals but don't have the facilities to manufacture them so I go usually go with whats available. Use to use Vigortone but can't seem to find it now so have been using the Purina All Season with Availa 4. It's a good sound mineral with ALL the micro nutrients coming from organic sources AND has a very good level of vitamins (don't forget those). Hi-Mag minerals tend to be less pricey than most minerals as phosphorus levels are often greatly reduced. You can't alway go by cost but if you're paying less than $25 for a 50 lb. bag of mineral I would question the quality of the product. Yeast products in mineral are usually a waste of your money so forget them as is advertised levels of protein especially NPN. Mineral tubs are extremely expensive, often poorly formulated and you're paying a fortune for molasses which serves no purpose other than to be the carrier for the minerals.

DeepSouth, wish there were a simply answer. Just watch your herd health, body conditions, calving problems or lack of same, and health of newborns. About the best measure you can find and even that is an opinion. Just don't over think it. ;-)

 

[Calhoun Farm]

Wouldn't a soil test be a good starting point?

I feed the co-op 96613 mineral.

 

[TexasBred]

Soil test would tell you what you have but often it's not so much that you have a deficiency of something but rather an imbalance in the minerals available. Also the breed of cattle you have will have some influence on amounts of things like copper, selenium, etc. needed.

 

[Nesikep]

If you can take a picture of the tag on it, or post up what it reads, that may help people not familiar with that mix... It'll also take someone from your area to interpret it, since what I need will be rather different... Heck, there's a big copper mine not 100 miles away but my cows need a lot of copper... Perhaps it's also because about 10 minutes away there's a creek called Molybenite creek, and Molybdenum interferes with copper absorption..

 

[Calhoun Farm]

http://www.ourcoop.com/ourcoop08/includ ... cument.pdf

 

[Nesikep]

You should be OK for copper with that, it's got lots... for my area we have 4x more Se though (125mg/kg), the Ca/P would be all wrong for us too.. I'll let someone else take it from here