MIG

[cross_7]

i've been reading some on managed intensive grazing.
most of what i have read recommends a small trap and daily moves.
my question due to the lack of time.
how much difference would there be if i double the size of the trap and moved every other day.

at one time i had a place that was set up for weekly moves and my experience was the cattle would graze the "candy" repeatedly and down to the ground before moving to the less desirable grasses. over time i saw a decrease in the more desirable grasses and an increase in the less desirable grass.

would the two day moves have the same effect ?

 

[agmantoo]

cross_7

The only disadvantage of the 2 day move is that you will waste a little more of the forage due to manure contamination and hoof traffic. Otherwise it will work fine. Try to make your allocation of forage to where at the end of the 2 day period that all clean forage was consumed. Do not permit back grazing. If you must back graze, have the herd off the consumed area by the 4th day or earlier following consumption.

 

[novatech]

The type of grass, the type of ground and the weather are variables in what will work best for you.
I know a man that runs an intensive grazing operation. He has a 2 day grazing period. When it is wet the cattle stomp a lot of grass into the ground. The hoof action spreads the manure.The result is that the ground has improved and the next time the cattle are turned into the same section the grass is even better. This is in sandy loam soil with a monoculture of coastal bermuda in the warm season and reseeding annual rye/clover for the cool season. The only wheels ever allowed into the paddocks are lime trucks. If you tried to do the same with a calcareous clay soil and mixed culture of stubble type grasses the results may not be the same.
As far as the cattle being selective, this is true, but they can be trained to graze just about anything. I have seen videos of cattle grazing thistle. I planted a 10 acre test plot of WW-B Dahl bluestem. The cattle would not touch it. Finally when other forages got scarce they went to the bluestem. Now they prefer it over the other grasses. So what you might just leave your cattle in the paddock longer until they develop a taste for it. This worked for me one year when I planted cow-peas in with the grass. Another thing about grasses is that cattle will prefer to eat different grasses at different growth stages, weeds included.

 

[pdfangus]

I did a project on it last year and started out moving daily but every weekend I had to move the fences for the next week. My stuff is not linear and regular and moving fences was sometimes a challenge. As the days got shorter my problems increased. I finally went to a three day move.....

that is working much better for me....

moving the cattle is easy....they see you going to the fence and they are there ready to move.....

moving the fences in the dark was my challenge.

With the three day move I can set up for a week pretty quickly and just change them when needed.

eliminating the backgraze is important.....The rest period for the grass is important.....If the stock can go back and clip new shoots then the candy grass is soon challenged and depleted. I find that with the three day graze I get nearly as clean a graze and my pastures are improving and I stopped buying chemical inputs three years ago.

 

[cross_7]

thanks for the help
i guess unless you have a monoculture of grass, your going to have selective grazing no matter the length of time in a trap.

 

[pdfangus]

if you do roatational grazing for long you won't have a monoculture for long.
grass compositon will change with the managment in response to the managment. If you have a definititive pattern the paddocks will differ depending on where they are in the pattern.

 

[cross_7]

one thing i read that doesn't seem right but has been stated a couple times by different people is to let the the grass grow as tall and rank as possible before turning the cattle in.
i would have thought it would be better to graze at a less mature state, but they claim with the manure and hoof action you will build better soil.

 

[cross_7]

The type of grass, the type of ground and the weather are variables in what will work best for you.
I know a man that runs an intensive grazing operation. He has a 2 day grazing period. When it is wet the cattle stomp a lot of grass into the ground. The hoof action spreads the manure.The result is that the ground has improved and the next time the cattle are turned into the same section the grass is even better. This is in sandy loam soil with a monoculture of coastal bermuda in the warm season and reseeding annual rye/clover for the cool season. The only wheels ever allowed into the paddocks are lime trucks. If you tried to do the same with a calcareous clay soil and mixed culture of stubble type grasses the results may not be the same.
As far as the cattle being selective, this is true, but they can be trained to graze just about anything. I have seen videos of cattle grazing thistle. I planted a 10 acre test plot of WW-B Dahl bluestem. The cattle would not touch it. Finally when other forages got scarce they went to the bluestem. Now they prefer it over the other grasses. So what you might just leave your cattle in the paddock longer until they develop a taste for it. This worked for me one year when I planted cow-peas in with the grass. Another thing about grasses is that cattle will prefer to eat different grasses at different growth stages, weeds included.

how do you feel the b dahl matches up production wise vs coastal.
i've been thinking about trying b dahl(might not work here) or ww spar.

 

[pdfangus]

I am going to a forage workshop next month where Kathy Voth is speaking on teaching livestock to consume weeds. I hope that is the subject. It is what she is known for.
Heard Fred Provenza talk about teaching goats to eat unpapatable range plants last year.

 

[agmantoo]

pdfangus

If circumstances permit at the forage workshop see if the training for weed consumption covers Amaranthus spinosus (spiny amaranth). Thanks

 

[dun]

pdfangus

If circumstances permit at the forage workshop see if the training for weed consumption covers Amaranthus spinosus (spiny amaranth). Thanks

I would think you would want to prevent them from eating poisonous plants

 

[novatech]

how do you feel the b dahl matches up production wise vs coastal.
i've been thinking about trying b dahl(might not work here) or ww spar.

Depends on the weather. The dahl out produced the coastal with less rain or no rain. When we did get a 2" rain the coastal shot up faster. Tifton 85 out performed both during and after drought, if you consider the drought over with the little rain we have had.
Planting is another story. With the dahl I sprayed round up and spread seed on top of the ground with no seed bed prep. I had 2 tenths of an inch of rain 2 days in a row and got a decent stand. As far as hybrid Bermudas go I would only plant jiggs or tifton 85. They both will out perform coastal, at least in my area.
Regardless of what you may decide on what I think is important in this climate change we are experiencing is that you need to find a grass that is deep rooted as with the dahl and hybrid Bermudas.

 

[novatech]

one thing i read that doesn't seem right but has been stated a couple times by different people is to let the the grass grow as tall and rank as possible before turning the cattle in.
i would have thought it would be better to graze at a less mature state, but they claim with the manure and hoof action you will build better soil.

Turning cattle on to pasture is not different than when you time to cut your hay. Turn them in when the TDN is at it's optmium level. This will vary according to the grass/forage you have. How much you allow them to graze it down will also vary.
Grazing pastures when it is soggy may be beneficial. With hybrid bermudas the runners get pushed down into the soil along with other organic matter. This can aid in getting a thicker stand because the runners root. On the other had, in another type of soil and a different type of grass it can have a negative effect. Checkout how adobe bricks are made, straw and clay baked in the sun.

 

[agmantoo]

pdfangus

If circumstances permit at the forage workshop see if the training for weed consumption covers Amaranthus spinosus (spiny amaranth). Thanks

I would think you would want to prevent them from eating poisonous plants

Dun,
I am unaware that spiny amarath or any of the Amaranthaceae family of plants are poisonous. My cattle already eat some of the spiny amarath, with no observed issues, when it is in the early stages of growth. I do know that it will build up with nitrates when commercial fertilizers are used. I have enough variation of forages that, to date, I have never had a bloat problem.

 

[dun]

pdfangus

If circumstances permit at the forage workshop see if the training for weed consumption covers Amaranthus spinosus (spiny amaranth). Thanks

I would think you would want to prevent them from eating poisonous plants

Dun,
I am unaware that spiny amarath or any of the Amaranthaceae family of plants are poisonous. My cattle already eat some of the spiny amarath, with no observed issues, when it is in the early stages of growth. I do know that it will build up with nitrates when commercial fertilizers are used. I have enough variation of forages that, to date, I have never had a bloat problem.

Poison was the wrong term, toxic would have been accurate. Doesn;t alwasy take fertiliet to make it toxic, drought stress is claimed to also cause it. Around here it only seems to really rear it's ugly head during drought cycles and usually in the less fertilized areas. Mules really like it and apparantly it doesn;t have any ill affects on them. The neighbor turns his mules into the stuff and they clean it up before they do much with any other plants/grasses.

 

[agmantoo]

Dun
The only problem that I found reference to with cattle eating the spiny amaranth was bloat. Did I miss something? Thanks

 

[dun]

Dun
The only problem that I found reference to with cattle eating the spiny amaranth was bloat. Did I miss something? Thanks

I've never seen anything about bloat, all I've seen is aborting and dying

 

[cross_7]

how do you feel the b dahl matches up production wise vs coastal.
i've been thinking about trying b dahl(might not work here) or ww spar.

Depends on the weather. The dahl out produced the coastal with less rain or no rain. When we did get a 2" rain the coastal shot up faster. Tifton 85 out performed both during and after drought, if you consider the drought over with the little rain we have had.
Planting is another story. With the dahl I sprayed round up and spread seed on top of the ground with no seed bed prep. I had 2 tenths of an inch of rain 2 days in a row and got a decent stand. As far as hybrid Bermudas go I would only plant jiggs or tifton 85. They both will out perform coastal, at least in my area.
Regardless of what you may decide on what I think is important in this climate change we are experiencing is that you need to find a grass that is deep rooted as with the dahl and hybrid Bermudas.

i need a grass that will root down to the water table

 

[dun]

i need a grass that will root down to the water table

Alfalfa and some of the bluestems is about all I know of that will root really dep

 

[novatech]

i need a grass that will root down to the water table

Alfalfa and some of the bluestems is about all I know of that will root really dep

Jogeephus said that UGA dug the roots of Tifton 85 down to 12 feet . I managed to get the only cutting of hay in the area off mine after only 8 "s of rain for the year. It only made 15 small squares to the acre but the price they are bringing made up for it.
You are right about the slim selection of deep rooted forages. Annual rye will get to a depth of about 54"s I have read. And I think there are some deep rooted clovers. The biggest problem is that you have to keep the cattle off in order for that deep root establishment. So it will not save the day for many people in need at the moment. I had to keep the cattle off the bluestem I planted for the first growing season but did get to use it for stockpiled forage.
I almost forgot to mention the guy next to me has some eastren gamma that produced a little.