Maximizing wean weight through calf brain size

[angus9259]

I've found wean weight is primarily driven by one factor and one factor only. It's not the genetics of the dam or the sire, but the size of the calf's and dam's brain.

Wean weight at my place is driven by whether or not a calf figures out it can nurse on multiple cows. Oddly, the ones that figure this out first are the calves who are on dams that don't milk as heavy - but they end up being the heaviest calves! So the wean weight number tends to be inversely proportional to the cow's actual ability to raise a big calf. The converse is also true - regardless of the genetics - if a calf doesn't figure it out it will get less milk and suffer from a wean weight perspective even though the dam may be one of the best and actually able to raise twins (or triplets or more).

This, of course, makes numerical selection a challenge as it can be quite difficult to determine which genetic package is actually delivering wean weight and you could end up retaining genetics that don't milk enough because their calves are so big. I have a small enough herd that I can actually watch it happening. No idea how large herds manage it when they can't watch individuals so closely other than to align a monster calf with a particular genetic package that may have nothing to do with the actual genetic package at all.

Oddly, stupid calves grow the slowest, but it's the stupid dams who allow it. So perhaps we need a new EPD outlining a cows ability to not allow the neighborhood over for lunch so the rest of us can actually decide, numerically, who can raise a good calf and who can't.

I propose to call the new EPD "suckitude".

 

[Ky hills]

Had to read that several times.
I’ll agree that the faster a calf gets up and nurses and how vigorous it is is a positive trait.
Over the years I’ve noticed a few calves nursing other cows opportunistically.
Most cows won’t let them,
Once had a heavy milking registered Charolais cow that would let any calf nurse her. Found her one day with her own calf and 3 others nursing. I promptly separated her and her calf from the herd for a while.
I’ve noticed that cows that calve at similar times will sometimes let each other’s calves nurse

 

[wbvs58]

I find my heifers if they calve and are kept as a group then their calves will drink from whoever is available as in if their mate is getting a feed then they will join in and nobody seems concerned about who is sharing.

Ken

 

[Little Joe]

My cows won't let another calf suck from them, don't guess I have ever had one that would.

 

[chevytaHOE5674]

Unless you watch each pair 24/7 you have no idea who is nursing from whom.

 

[Travlr]

I had a Brown Swiss (my dad's) on my place that would let anything nurse and it just about killed her. She was a big animal, probably 1600#, and when the calves were all weaned she probably went 1000#. She hadn't bred back so she went to the sale barn.

 

[farmerjan]

I find my heifers if they calve and are kept as a group then their calves will drink from whoever is available as in if their mate is getting a feed then they will join in and nobody seems concerned about who is sharing.

Ken

Our last group of heifers did the same. I think there were 8 in that group. They were raised together, bred, and calved all within a couple weeks... and saw several of them with 2 calves on them just anytime. If anyone was not as good a milker, it would be hard to pick out... and really, as long as they all weaned off a calf at a good weight, I am not going to quibble. Down the road that might change as they get moved to different pastures, what with renting different places. We move them out to pastures in the spring when we have say 6-10 that have calved... calves get worked, then the pairs get moved so they will probably not all stay together later on in life. If someone is not as good a milker, it will show up in later lactations.

 

[Brute 23]

I am not sure that would be a good thing. It would not take much of an age difference for one calf to be able to over power another.

 

[angus9259]

Unless you watch each pair 24/7 you have no idea who is nursing from whom.

Jokingly, this is my point. Our data and records on wean weight are simply based on what a calf weighs. SO when a lunker comes up from the field with its momma, we assume that's where he got all his feed. I suggest it's a bad assumption. My experience, because I am afforded a small herd in my back yard, I see it and so I know my heavy calves are often simply the recipient of their tenacity to find multiple lunch partners.

I suppose their are such farms where it doesn't happen through diligent culling. I also imagine there are folks getting 25 MPG with their Duramax and I can only muster 15. So it goes. However, in my 30 years, it's been my experience that once calves are 60 days old and figure out how to nurse from behind while the dam's regular calf is nursing from the side, there will be no amount of maternal diligence that can over come said calf - it will not be denied!! You will simply end up culling good cows because of some renegade cognitively superior calves. But, again, I'm sure other folks don't have the problem because of their superior culling skills.

 

[Little Joe]

Unless you watch each pair 24/7 you have no idea who is nursing from whom.

My cows seem to instictively know it's not their calf trying to suck without ever looking they'll kick at or turn around and nudge the calf away. Sometimes they seem down right aggressive about it, some are not even fans of another cows calf eating beside them.

 

[chevytaHOE5674]

My cows seem to instictively know it's not their calf trying to suck without ever looking they'll kick at or turn around and nudge the calf away. Sometimes they seem down right aggressive about it, some are not even fans of another cows calf eating beside them.

Often a cow won't let a strange calf suck by itself. But when a cow is nursing its own calf that's when strangers will sneak in and nurse from behind typically. Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it isn't happening. Sometimes I won't see it happen with my own two eyes for years at a time, other times I'll happen to catch it frequently.

 

[Ebenezer]

A great reason to cull the cows. Let that happen, ride to town. Mothering instincts need to be there. Amen.

 

[kenny thomas]

I wouldn't cull a cow for allowing it but if i catch a calf sucking from behind i note its number and look at its mother. It might mean she needs culled.

 

[Travlr]

My cows seem to instictively know it's not their calf trying to suck without ever looking they'll kick at or turn around and nudge the calf away. Sometimes they seem down right aggressive about it, some are not even fans of another cows calf eating beside them.

I wouldn't want a cow that lets other calves suck. I want to know the ones that raise a good calf so I can weed out the ones that don't. A bunch of cows that feed each other's babies would screw up any way to sort them out.

 

[farmerjan]

Sorry, @Ebenezer , I would wind up culling over half my herd every year. My cows have a very good mothering instinct... have seen them fight off coyotes and dogs in the past... and the black buzzards. They don't let other calves nurse when small... only after the calves get up to the 200 lb range or so.... are they more "mellow" and if they grew up together, they will often take care of/let nurse , calves from their "siblings"... so to speak.
I am not going to "throw them away" because they don't fight off a second calf stealing some milk.
Some I have never seen with anyone other their own calf on them... and the bought cows tend to not be as willing to let other calves near them... but I am not going to hold it against a cow that lets someone else nurse her when her own calf is nursing.

 

[farmerjan]

I wouldn't cull a cow for allowing it but if i catch a calf sucking from behind i note its number and look at its mother. It might mean she needs culled.

I do the same... check to see who is doing the stealing and make note of who the mother is and see if she tends to be short on milk.... calf nursing for only a few minutes and such. But that one group of heifers that all calved together would have 2 and 3 on them sometimes and I just said it will sort its self out eventually... So far, still have 7 of the 8 I think... one was open, and they are in 3 different groups now so not much of the "co-parenting" going on this past year.

 

[Ebenezer]

Sorry, @Ebenezer , I would wind up culling over half my herd every year. My cows have a very good mothering instinct... have seen them fight off coyotes and dogs in the past... and the black buzzards. They don't let other calves nurse when small... only after the calves get up to the 200 lb range or so.... are they more "mellow" and if they grew up together, they will often take care of/let nurse , calves from their "siblings"... so to speak.
I am not going to "throw them away" because they don't fight off a second calf stealing some milk.
Some I have never seen with anyone other their own calf on them... and the bought cows tend to not be as willing to let other calves near them... but I am not going to hold it against a cow that lets someone else nurse her when her own calf is nursing.

Just a different expectation. I do not allow. You do. "Throw away" is not the game but how do you know the value of a cow if her calf is a dud every year while she is feeding the rest of the calves. Just saying. I bought a herd of cows for additional females some years ago. One cow had that tendency. Before I culled later in the year, others seemed to observe and learn. Calves that had access to her also pestered other cows and likely forced the issue. I did the "clean house" and the issue went away.
There is a nationally known Angus herd. You can look at videos most years and see sale cows with weaning rings. That means that they learned as calves. A friend visited them and saw the herd bull nursing cows. What a contribution to the breed! If you read the breeder on FB and in print - he is the greatest and his herd is too. To me they are problems waiting to be sold to the unknowing.

 

[Brute 23]

We have more issues with cows making too much milk and it being hell on bags long term. I purposely stay away from high milk epd bulls.

 

[farmerjan]

Whole different story when a mature animal sucks a nursing cow.... I had 2 over the years that tried it.... AND both were bottle raised heifers.... and they were culled. I tried the "weaning ring" on one... got it off and the second one that got off... she went to town... with her 2 month calf on her.
I have never had a mature cow go to nursing another cow... THAT I AM AWARE OF..... that was raised on a cow and that did some stealing.... I know it happens... but they are dealt with and culled.
Most times a cow that allows other calves to nurse does NOT raise a DUD... got one now that raises one of the biggest calves... she is 9 or 10 now... and she lets other calves nurse her too. I am not going to cull her because she is making more milk than her calf needs. Plus, it keeps her from needing any intervention from me as a possible mastitis concern.

Yep, different strokes for different farmers... I don't get upset over it, you do.

 

[bird dog]

I have a lot more things to worry about than this. I sure as hell am not going to take a big loss on a cow just because another calf nurses from the back end. If it effects her calf size, it will show up soon enough and she will be culled then.

A few weeks back while skimming my cattle records I noticed a note saying a cow was letting another cow nurse her. She was a heifer at the time. I had moved the heifer to another place and promptly forgot about it. The heifer developed into one of top cows in my herd and I never saw her have that problem again.

Now years before I had a heifer that would nurse herself. She didn't stay around long.