Making momma cows???

[LRAF]

In your opinion from all the stud directories what bull stands out as a female maker???

 

[Son of Butch]

The bulls with sexed semen available of course. ( :cowboy: too clever for my own good)

I have not searched current listings, but last year as of July 2015
SydGen CC&7 had the highest % of eligible daughters awarded pathfinder status.
Syd Gen CC&7 - 50 out of 222 eligible daughters = 22.5%

others of note as of July 2015
18.1% Sitz Upward 210 out of 1159 eligible daughters
12.5% SAV Bismarck 91 of 726
9.3% SAV Final Answer 182 of 1957

The 2 rising stars last year with less than 100 daughters eligible were:
Hoover Dam with 9 out of 55 eligible daughters = 16.4%
Connealy Right Answer 9 of 77 for 11.7%

I just looked up the current 2016 report for a personal favorite of mine Connealy Reflection at Accelerated Genetics
10.7% Connealy Reflection 35 out of 326 eligible daughters .... not saying he's the best, but I do like him
update from the new 2016 report
10.5% Hoover Dam 31 out of 295 he added more daughters and declined
13.2% Connealy Right Answer 28 of 212 (at Genex) he added more daughters and improved from 11.7%
looks like last year's 2 rising stars swapped places

I'll have to browse the full report to see what else has changed.
Bismarck has fallen from 12.5% to 7.7% he has a reputation for hit or miss and seems the later daughters are missing
more often than what the earlier daughters did
SydGen CC&7 is lower, but still strong at 16% with 104 of 652
11.6% S Chisum 18 of 155 looks like a good one to me
8.9% HARB Pendleton 88 of 988 once upon a time he was much higher

This year's new pathfinder rising stars with less than 100 eligible daughters are:
Connealy Consensus 7229 with 14 of 55 eligible daughters = 25.5%
Car Chinnook 786 with 12 of 53 = 22.6% (Genex) a Really Windy son and priced at only $16 ya gotta like that
Werner War Party 14 of 87 = 16% (Select Sires) a bit of a surprise looking at just his epds, but I'm not at all surprised
based on the calves that I've seen. I like both his sons and daughters. An all around good bull.

 

[W.B.]

If pathfinders interest you, check out S Summit 956. If I remember right he was 6 out of 13.

 

[jscunn]

SOB,
I like your thought process but one thing you need to consider is the older a sire is the harder it is gonna be to keep a high percentage.. Think back to EXT And 036 both at one time had over 100 pathfinder daughters but a low percentage because there were daughters that were 10 yrs old and up. ALOT easier for a 5 yr old to make pathfinder than a 10 yr old...

 

[wildcat2154]

Connealy Thunder
Hoover Dam

 

[Son of Butch]

Connealy Thunder born 1/28/2005 11y 5m old 34 pathfinder daughters out 817 eligible daughters = 4.2%
Hoover Dam born 1/25/2008 8y 5m 295 eligible dau 31 pf daus = 10.5%

 

[Son of Butch]

SOB,
I like your thought process but one thing you need to consider is the older a sire is the harder it is gonna be to keep a high percentage.. Think back to EXT And 036 both at one time had over 100 pathfinder daughters but a low percentage because there were daughters that were 10 yrs old and up. A LOT easier for a 5 yr old to make pathfinder than a 10 yr old...

Thank you and you are partly correct.... BUT
S Summit was the youngest sire to qualify for the pathfinder sire report and he was born 3/12/2009 making him 7y 4m
So No, it is impossible for a 5 yr old sire to qualify let alone have an advantage over a 10 yr old sire

Comparing sires that entered A.I. within a year or 2 of each other is the fairest method and I sure won't stop
anyone from doing that.

SAV Bismarck born 2/1/2005 11y 6m
2015 report 726 eligible daughters 91 pathfinder daus = 12.5%
2016 report 1576 eligible daus. 122 pathfinder daus. = 7.74%

Both of Bismarck's eligible daughters and his total pathfinder daughters are still rising, he will probably peak next year
at 12 yrs age age or he may even peak at 13 or 14 because he was still heavily used 4-5 yrs ago.
Final Answer's totals rose again this year bcs of his reputation as a cow maker and he was born in 2000

A young sire with less than 20 eligible daughters is virtually meaningless because you can be sure as soon as the A.I. contract is signed the owner is working to get semen into the best 50-60 cows he can find as soon as possible to give his sire a leg up.

grrrr.... just realized you meant 5 yr old COW having advantage not 5 yr old sire
well, i'm not retyping reply ....even though dead cows are not eligible daughters

 

[jscunn]

SOB,
Yes I meant 5 yr old cows have an advantage, sorry wasn't clear about that. One thing I didn't realize that you do that makes a ton of sense is comparing AI sires of the same age.. I missed that part.

 

[angus9259]

Ironically, I'm thinking of using some reflection. Do you just like his daughters or can he make bulls? He certainly has a maternal pedigree but he's one whaaaale of a bull.

 

[JMJ Farms]

I know I'm in the past but I've got 30 straws of 878 left that I'm gonna use. I have a neighbor that has used 878 for several years and he has made some nice "balanced" daughters.

 

[Air gator]

As long as we are talking about older bulls...Mytty In Focus was the Pathfinder champ for 5 years, I believe. I don't know how he can have a 2.9 HP epd and be the top bull for registrations for years. I have seen photos of really nice 878 cows. Not sure about his back legs though.

 

[angus9259]

878 is another bull I would like to dig back out again - probably part of why I like reflection - plus reflection seems to have more mass

 

[Son of Butch]

I'm thinking of using some reflection. Do you just like his daughters or can he make bulls?
He certainly has a maternal pedigree ....

Can he make bulls?
He's the sire of Jindra Double Vision 16748826 top 2% $B 163

Yes Reflection is calving ease 11 bw .4 acc .95 and breed leading hp 33 with top 5% cem 14 and top 20% $W 61
but he also is top 26% tile for $B 121 and top 20% cw 43
born in 2003 he's over 13 yrs old and is time tested, currently with 10.7% pathfinder daughters

I say they are average sized cows .4 mh 37 mw (40% tile) others use to larger cows say they are smaller than average
I say they are a tad straight in the rear leg, but I've had others standing along side me looking at the same animal tell me they thought I was wrong and they thought ideal leg set or that they prefer a tad straight to a tad too crooked.
Either way darn good legs.
Honestly I think he does a lot of good and very little harm and sires all around better than average performing cattle.
As I mentioned before he's kind of a personal favorite of mine.

 

[Son of Butch]

As long as we are talking about older bulls...Mytty In Focus was the Pathfinder champ for 5 years, I believe.
I don't know how he can have a 2.9 HP epd and be the top bull for registrations for years.

Mytty in Focus top 10% ce 13 top 10% bw -1.7 and top 2% sc 2.06 really drove his popularity
declaring pathfinder champ on total number pf produced without considering total eligible isn't right in my opinion

the anomaly of Mitty In Focus outstanding top 2% sc and the very disappointing 85% tile hp 2.9
leads me to believe more is at play in fertility than SC is given credit for
perhaps shape of the testicles is as important to siring healthy productive ovaries as circumference.
Connealy Reflection has a breed leading female fertility of 33 hp yet is below breed average SC
And below breed average sc probably really hurt his A.I. sales

Last year Mytty in Focus at 14 yrs of age had 243 pathfinder daughters out of 5,492 for 4.4%
This year Reflection at 13 yrs of age had 35 pf daus. out of 326 eligible daughters for 10.7%

Just because in Focus was 15 times more popular in A.I. use than Reflection doesn't make him a better cow maker.
I think everyone expected in Focus outstanding sc would carry through to highly fertile females and were shocked
when that did not happen

 

[Son of Butch]

Scrotal Circumference
Connealy Comrade with nearly identical below average sc as Connealy Reflection
In 2015 4 yr old Comrade was not only identified as a superior settler he also set Select Sires single year sales record.
Reinforcing my theory that testicle shape and health is every bit as important as scrotal circumference in producing
high volumes of high quality semen. And in siring highly fertile ovaries in females.
Perhaps SC has been a little bit overrated because it is such an easy measurement to take?

It will be interesting to see how Comrade ranks on the 2019 pathfinder report.

 

[Son of Butch]

If pathfinders interest you, check out S Summit 956. If I remember right he was 6 out of 13.

Summit at Select Sires is a well proven sire with top 5% ce top 1% doc top 1% $W you gotta love all that
He is probably the best value in all of A.I. for anyone selling their calf crop as it appears their rapid early growth advantage disappears in the feedlot.

Now it appears he is going to be a top cow maker too! At least he's off to a heck of a good start.
Certainly one to watch, he could be special and he is a bull that deserves to see heavy use.

 

[Air gator]

Other than calving ease why was Mytty In Focus so popular? I read a post somewhere that if you looked in a pasture you would be able to pick out the MIF cows because they would be the "ugly" ones. If his heifers were difficult to breed then why did people keep breeding to him? How can you produce so many Pathfinders if your fertility is so low? It doesn't make sense. There is a popular A.I bull now that has a -8 epd for HP but he is quite popular. (There is another Angus bull that is -5 for CEM and he is a hot bull). Not sure why anyone would add that to his or her herd.

Butch,
I am interest to see if Summit's brother S Whitlock will produce quality heifers as well. S Whitlock seems to have better beef qualities.

 

[Lucky_P]

OK, y'all are all jacked up about numbers of Pathfinder daughters... that's all about registered cows, in herds where folks collect and turn in 'numbers' to the breed association - and perhaps (not always) 'pamper' those cows somewhat. That's all well and good... but what about sires being used in commercial herds - unregistered straightbred or crossbred - that may be subjected to more stringent production/performance criteria?
Inquiring minds want to know....

 

[Son of Butch]

Other than calving ease why was Mytty In Focus so popular?
+2.06 scrotal circumference - Everyone knows the Nuts, Butts & Guts saying.
Add top 10% calving ease with top 2% sc and you've big time sales.
Plus ABS gets as much semen into cows as anyone, so top notch marketing and distribution is always a factor.

I read a post somewhere that if you looked in a pasture you would be able to pick out the MIF cows because they would be the "ugly" ones.
If his heifers were difficult to breed then why did people keep breeding to him?
Name recognition and demand for sons. There is always a big demand for bulls with big nuts and In Focus sons sure have them. HP accuracy takes a long time, much longer than calving ease acc. Since everyone "knows" big nuts = daughter fertility they are much more willing to give him a pass when hp accuracy is low. Plus look how many pathfinder daughters he was producing (without considering % of eligible daughters) Success stories are easy to find when you have so many to choose from. It all helps keeps the sales rolling right along, and people fear missing out on a good thing, so they will buy on the approval of others. IE I know so and so is selling sons of him and if he is good enough for him to use I should probably be using him too.

How can you produce so many Pathfinders if your fertility is so low? It doesn't make sense.
Throw enough spaghetti at a wall and some of it is going to stick.

There is a popular A.I bull now that has a -8 epd for HP but he is quite popular.
(There is another Angus bull that is -5 for CEM and he is a hot bull).
Not sure why anyone would add that to his or her herd.

Butch,
I am interest to see if Summit's brother S Whitlock will produce quality heifers as well.
S Whitlock seems to have better beef qualities.

Beef traits and maternal traits are antagonistic to each other, which is why I was surprised by War Party's high % of path finder daughters. Whitlock could produce quality heifers, but as a betting man I'd put my money on Summit over Whitlock. (You can collect your winnings in a few years as time will tell.)

 

[Son of Butch]

OK, y'all are all jacked up about numbers of Pathfinder daughters... that's all about registered cows, in herds where folks collect and turn in 'numbers' to the breed association - and perhaps (not always) 'pamper' those cows somewhat. That's all well and good... but what about sires being used in commercial herds - unregistered straightbred or crossbred - that may be subjected to more stringent production/performance criteria?
Inquiring minds want to know....

Excellent point Lucky_P
But what other reliable information do we have to use other than the breed association information?
That's why I believe within 40 years we will see the rise of a commercial breed association to address the points you've made. There is a need for it and I believe there will eventually be a demand for it.
But aren't the same A.I. sires being used in registered herds the same sires being used in "grade" or commercial herds?
I know those are the A.I. sires I use on mine and the only registered animal I own is the angus bull I bought.

Plus the original poster's question was... Which A.I. bull is the best cow maker?
Rather than just throw out some names, I've been trying to give my reasons why.
Young sires are speculation, and pathfinder sires are proven bulls with data for maternal traits.