Low Input Sermons ?

[Stocker Steve]

Lots of articles recently on how folks need to re adjust to the latest price changes. Also a lot of articles recently on how someone(s) :cboy: should save the country be increasing the size of their cow herd. If I just buy less fertilizer and less seed and less hay my herd gets smaller - - not bigger.
There is usually a way to git her done but folks may not be willing. Do you see folks making mob grazing work with commodity cattle, or is some higher value product required to make the numbers work?

 

[Banjo]

Could you clarify? I'm not sure I completely understand the question.

 

[WalnutCrest]

<snip>Do you see folks making mob grazing work with commodity cattle, or is some higher value product required to make the numbers work?

I'm not sure what he's saying / asking either ... except for this last part ...

If you change your management (i.e., you're not mob grazing now, but want to start), over time your animals will tell you which ones are most adapted to the new style. If you want to jump-start that, you'd be doing well for yourself to take whatever it is you have to start with (presumably commercial cows) and breed them to grass genetics / mowing machines from people who have a similar approach to managing their cattle. This will accelerate your herd conversion to the change of management styles.

...or, maybe I didn't understand your question. ??

 

[regolith]

There's an interesting concept I've read about recently. Not sure if I can put it into words very well, but as soon as I read it I understood it because you see it in practice all over this country.

Good dairy pasture here is fertilised, stocked to its carrying capacity and carefully managed.
Rough grazing is often steep so can't be fertilised or seeded easily, carries less livestock and is usually under-grazed. But it's not just steep ground - good flat dairy land will start to look the same if you do one of three things: cut the fertiliser. Reduce stocking rate. Fail to control growth.
So what is happening on the steep pasture is actually a vicious circle that begins as soon as the stocking rate is dropped in response to poorer growth (such as in a drought year), the land becomes progressively less fertile, stocking rate is dropped again and poorer plant species start to dominate and so on. Or the cycle could be triggered by poorer farm profits making fertilisation uneconomic.

With management, I think you could come close to the production of fertilised pasture through the cows spreading their own manure - that is, that you can have a sustainable system that doesn't involve a lot of external fertiliser. But it's not going to come easy, and it's better to start with good soil than to try and make some.
Or is it the financial side you want to discuss?

 

[Banjo]

Lots of articles recently on how folks need to re adjust to the latest price changes. Also a lot of articles recently on how someone(s) :cboy: should save the country be increasing the size of their cow herd. If I just buy less fertilizer and less seed and less hay my herd gets smaller - - not bigger.
There is usually a way to git her done but folks may not be willing. Do you see folks making mob grazing work with commodity cattle, or is some higher value product required to make the numbers work?

I would take a look at Greg Judy's videos on youtube, he seems to be making it work. His approach is patterned basically after Allan Savorys work in Africa. There are many different ideas about rotational grazing, many books on the subject and many are worthless. One of the best ones I've read is by Walt Davis called "How to not go broke ranching".
In a nutshell.....from my own experience, pastures don't need to be grazed more than 4 times a year. Three would be better and 2 would be just fine also. At 4 times a year you are resting/recovering 90 days. At 3 times per year you are resting/recovering 120 days and so on and so forth. A lot of IRG's try to rotate every 3 weeks or 30 days.....in doing so you never really build a deep root system, if it does benefit the soil it takes a long long time. Grass will grow just fine if givin the opportunity and with not too much grazing pressure.....it doesn't need fertilize to do it, at least not long term. More grass growing with long rotations means less hay feeding in the winter. Can you eliminate it completely? Maybe yes maybe no but you sure can reduce amount you will need.
All that amounts to much lower inputs. Fertilize and Hay are the two biggest profit busters on the farm.

 

[HDRider]

I expect the need for more fencing, even electric, more water spots and frequent moves prevent many from converting to MIG.

 

[greybeard]

And the need for someone to be on premises all the time to move them around as needed. By them, I mean cattle, temporary fencing, water, minerals etc. It's not just mob grazing, it's also mob management that has to be considered.

 

[Stocker Steve]

Good dairy pasture here is fertilized, stocked to its carrying capacity and carefully managed.
Rough grazing is often steep so can't be fertilized or seeded easily, carries less livestock and is usually under-grazed. But it's not just steep ground - good flat dairy land will start to look the same if you do one of three things: cut the fertilizer. Reduce stocking rate. Fail to control growth.
So what is happening on the steep pasture is actually a vicious circle that begins as soon as the stocking rate is dropped in response to poorer growth (such as in a drought year), the land becomes progressively less fertile, stocking rate is dropped again and poorer plant species start to dominate and so on. Or the cycle could be triggered by poorer farm profits making fertilization uneconomic.
With management, I think you could come close to the production of fertilized pasture through the cows spreading their own manure - that is, that you can have a sustainable system that doesn't involve a lot of external fertilizer. But it's not going to come easy, and it's better to start with good soil than to try and make some.

I have done the "good diary pasture" for stockers. Works well with cheap N and rain, but that has not been the case the last two years.
I am seeing more low input but high intensity grazing promotions, but they are often with low rent eroded K 31 land. We don't have that situation so I need some expert input for a cooler wetter climate. I am considering at a long (7 or 8 year) lay farming rotation, and would appreciate any cost vs. benefit comparisons.

 

[andybob]

Johann Zietsman's system involves using a single hot wire, the cattle are quickly trained for this system, it does involve a full time stockman, but smaller herds can be grazed together if you can organise to network with neighbours, Alan Savory has used networking amongst the tribal herders in Zimbabwe to achieve the large herds needed to make the system work efficiently in tropical conditions,

 

[Richardin52]

Not sure why you think grazing a plot of ground only 2 or 3 times a year is better? Grass in my area would be in phase 3 growth if it were not grazed more than that. Sure it would have a lot of reserve in the root but once grass hits phase 3 growth it slows down so you no longer have an efficient solar panel. Also cattle only graze about 8 hours per day and they can take in more food in phase 2 growth because they do not have to take as much time to masticate the courser growth found in phase 3 grass.

I try to graze an area when in phase 2 growth before starts to head. Rest periods depend on time of year rainfall etc. etc. I also never graze below 4 inches and most times they are moved at about 6 inches depending on the time of year.

 

[Banjo]

Not sure why you think grazing a plot of ground only 2 or 3 times a year is better? Grass in my area would be in phase 3 growth if it were not grazed more than that. Sure it would have a lot of reserve in the root but once grass hits phase 3 growth it slows down so you no longer have an efficient solar panel. Also cattle only graze about 8 hours per day and they can take in more food in phase 2 growth because they do not have to take as much time to masticate the courser growth found in phase 3 grass.I try to graze an area when in phase 2 growth before starts to head. Rest periods depend on time of year rainfall etc. etc. I also never graze below 4 inches and most times they are moved at about 6 inches depending on the time of year.

This is where fescue needs to be clipped /mowed before it turns brown or the seedheads turn brown....at that point it will go dormant and not start growing again until fall. Most mob grazers don't promote clipping pastures....if I had a thousand or two acres I may not either, but for my operation I find it feasible and productive. Also allowing a plant/grass to grow to maturity seems to have a rejuvenating effect on it, but it needs to be clipped while still green to prevent dormancy.

 

[regolith]

I'm with the 'rotate more frequently' crowd, working on the principle that past a certain stage of growth the pasture is losing quality and the gain in quantity is slowing considerably as lower leaves are dying nearly as fast as new ones are formed. My rotations go from about seventeen days in late spring out to sixty - ninety days through the winter. And grazing as short as 1 - 3 inches.
From what I've read here, mob grazing is a completely different approach.
I dug a post hole the other day and the ryegrass roots were visible for fifteen to eighteen inches down. The square of grass + roots I lifted off the top was about six inches thick. That's about the best I've seen anywhere, certainly a much deeper root system than I'd say was normal for ryegrass on a dairy farm.

The lack of seeding in my tightly controlled management systems does concern me - in my ideal world I'd probably want to run a low enough stocking rate to set aside 10% each year through the seeding process, utilising that grass in the autumn. The push for production over the last several years hasn't allowed the good grasses on the farms I've worked on to set seed... in fact, the terms of my current contract specify that all surplus must be baled in a timely manner.
There's a funny concept we call "Best Practice" that often involves a lot of work and expense that might be completely unnecessary... like the advice that a certain area of the farm should be sprayed out and drilled with new pasture each year, or that all long grass must be cut and baled, or that the correct frequency of moving cattle is every twelve hours, or that the correct milking time is in the hottest part of the afternoon when the flies are at their worst... okay, I'll shut up before I start saying things I might regret :lol:

 

[Richardin52]

There's a funny concept we call "Best Practice" that often involves a lot of work and expense that might be completely unnecessary... like the advice that a certain area of the farm should be sprayed out and drilled with new pasture each year, or that all long grass must be cut and baled, or that the correct frequency of moving cattle is every twelve hours, or that the correct milking time is in the hottest part of the afternoon when the flies are at their worst... okay, I'll shut up before I start saying things I might regret :lol:

"Best Practice" sounds like it came right out of a university where some idiot concentrates on one little thing while they miss everything else in the big picture. Take that 15 inches of sod you measured. That sounds like ideal conditions for earthworms to me.

With ideal conditions and food it's not unheard of to have concentrations of 25 worms per square foot which equals 1 million worms per acre.

One million worms will put down 18 3/4 tons of worm castings per year. How many years does it take you to put down 18 3/4 tons of manure down on one acre at your current rate?

By the way all worm casting have a Ph of 7, not only that but a worms gut is a natural bioreactor which increases beneficial microbial density in the material it excretes up to 1,000 time that of the surrounding soil.

Ground rich in worm castings have shown an increase in crop production of 25 to 300%. One million worms per acre would create 1,200 miles of worm holes which is equal to 4,000 feet of drain tile. If the top three feet of soil has 25% worm borrows it can absorb 9 inches of rain with no runoff.

Now lets look at what "Best Practices" will do. A plot of ground that is plowed every year will see a 90% reduction in worm population in 6 years. Spraying herbicides and pesticides giving cattle wormers that end up in the ground and over grazing all kill worms. Not only is "Best Practices" unnecessary but it's detrimental to production and costs you money to boot.

Don't know about you but I always figured that spending money needlessly and ruining your land is a sure ticket to the poor house.

 

[Banjo]

The ecosystem under our feet is incredible. That is why the soil needs to be covered at all times or as much as possible.
That is why I stopped cutting hay on any of my land, not only does it take everything off, but it leaves it wide open to the heat of the sun.

 

[HDRider]

How much best practice involves spending money?
Who benefits most when you spend money on suspect best practices?
Who funds research at universities?
Where do best practices come from?

 

[hayray]

Thanks for the post Richardin52, I totally agree.

 

[ohiosteve]

How much best practice involves spending money?
Who benefits most when you spend money on suspect best practices?
Who funds research at universities?
Where do best practices come from?

Who is John Galt?

 

[Redhides]

I've tried general rotational grazing on 4-5 pastures, it works better than continuous grazing.
Quicker rotational grazing dividing the 4-5 paddocks into 16 paddocks works even better.
MOB grazing at 50K lbs per acre works better....200k lb per acre works better still.

What you have to consider is what you are set up to do. I don't have the water flexibility nor the help to graze nearly as heavily as I'd like.

I don't even worry about the stage of growth the grass is in, but more so how much is left on the ground. I like to eat half and waste half. It's even better if you can graze a quarter and have them stomp the bajesus out 3/4 of the stand.

That being said, I don't agree that haying all together is a bad practice. I think haying can be a great option in certain situations as you wait on watering flexibility to improve. I can actually improve crap pretty fast by dry-lotting cows in a single pasture as you haul in nutrients via mixed grass hay in the winter. Let them make an absolute mess....pull the cows, broadcast cheap ryegrass and drag. Pound it once in early June. By mid summer you can work it into the rotation. Stockpiling just creates flexibility.

 

[TexasBred]

One million worms will put down 18 3/4 tons of worm castings per year. How many years does it take you to put down 18 3/4 tons of manure down on one acre at your current rate?

By the way all worm casting have a Ph of 7, not only that but a worms gut is a natural bioreactor which increases beneficial microbial density in the material it excretes up to 1,000 time that of the surrounding soil.

How much N,P and K would this add to each acre of soil?

 

[Richardin52]

How much N,P and K would this add to each acre of soil?[/quote]

Comparing NPK to any type of manure in my mind is like trying to compare apples to oranges.

Chemical fertilizers feed plants directly and when the chemicals are gone, their gone, sorta like a popcorn fart, Here today gone tomorrow.

That's why if you put chemical fertilizer on a hay field you will get one good cutting but the field production drops way off after that. If you were to put chicken manure on the same field it wouldn't be unheard of to be able to go two and even three years before another application were needed. That's because you are feeding the system, the whole system, and while the NPK numbers may sound good to someone that is used to using that as a measure it really means very little if you look at the whole system.

Here's an article I found on the internet that I think will explain it better than I can.

Understanding the Value of Castings

Castings added to the soil carry to the root zone a rich compliment of soluble plant nutrients and growth enhancing compounds, a diverse and populous consortium of microbial life and a substrate of organic matter harboring a storehouse of nutrients that are not lost to rain and irrigation. The plant is delivered an ongoing, reliable food source when bacteria and microscopic fungi feed on the organic matter, releasing some of the nutrients to the soil and storing others for their own energy and reproduction. When nematodes and protozoa in turn feed upon them, the nutrients stored in the bacterial and fungal bodies are released to the soil in a plant-available form.

According to Dr. Elaine Ingham, Director of Soil FoodWeb, Inc. of Corvallis, Oregon, when soil, compost or castings support protozoa numbers on the order of 20,000 per gram of solid matter, 400 pounds of nitrogen per acre are released through their predation of bacteria. When we feed organic matter to the soil, the soil life feeds nutrients to the plant.

Further, unlike soluble plant fertilizers, the nutrients stored in organic matter and the bodies of the microbial life are not lost through irrigation to contaminate ground water. Hair-thin fungal tentacles, called hyphae, wrap about soil and organic matter particles in their search for food, forming aggregates that are the basis for good soil structure. Thus, both the fungi and the organic matter are held in the soil. Bacteria exude sticky glues that enable them to cling to solid particles of mineral and organic matter, ensuring they too remain in the soil and, like the fungi, aid in the formation of aggregates.

Nutrient retention and cycling are not the only benefit to castings use, however. By inoculating the soil with the rich, diverse, microbial life present in good worm castings, the plant root is protected from disease and attack by root-feeding organisms. Because the diversity of organisms aids in ensuring everyone present has a predator, no one organism in the root zone is easily able to reach populations sufficient to cause significant damage. Plant roots exude foods that encourage colonization by microbial life beneficial to the plant, reducing the number of possible infection points. Many micro-organisms exude compounds inhibitory to pathogenic organisms, further reducing the chance for pathogen blooms sufficient to cause plant damage.

When we add castings and the microbial life they support to the soil, we aid in increasing the complexity and diversity of organisms in the root zone, thus aiding in disease and pest suppression. It may not be in the root zone alone where worm castings demonstrate the ability to suppress pest attack, however. There is a growing body of research suggesting that castings derived from a feedstock of plant materials are rich in a compound called chitinase. Chitin, a component of the exoskeleton of many insects, is damaged by chitinase, leading some researchers to believe its presence in the castings may be inhibitory to some insects. Research being conducted in California is demonstrating suppression of white fly and ambrosia beetle in some tree species when castings containing chitinase are applied at the root zone.