Just a thought!?

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3ECATTLE

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I've been thinking about trying something for a while now just curious to how yall think it would do!??

So I have a chance to pick up another lease not huge its about 25 acres with a small pond. I'm thinking about black baldy cows maybe 8 to 10 and wait for it......

A Braunvieh Bull!???

There's some nice looking registered bulls not too far from me and that's not a very common breed around me but they seem to do well crossed back on straight angus cows but I'd like to keep a baldy or mottled face calf!

Any thoughts!??
 

Lucky_P

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They're great cattle. I waited way too late in my 'career' to finally get around to using some Braunvieh sires - I'd wanted to for 20 years... just hadn't gotten around to it. Our herd was mostly 3/4AN-1/4SM, but had a few halfblood Shorthorns in the mix, and red-carrier cows from the Simmental bulls several generations back.

Over homo black cows, most calves were black, but on reds or red-carriers, I got brindles and a few wild-colors. The steers were fantastic, but if they weren't black, they got the expected dock at the salebarn. Kept all the heifers except 2 sired by a bul known for passing on some 'heat', and those two left as yearlings because of docility issues; all others were dog-gentle. Only calved out one flight of halfblood heifers before we sold out, but they were doing a great job with their calves.

You could do a whole lot worse than a Braunvieh bull over a bunch of black cows. I really liked my brindles & wild-color cows better than the blacks.
 
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3ECATTLE

3ECATTLE

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I like the brindle but the salebarn does not! I guess that's a big part of my original question. How many calves would you expect to be "off colored"???

Also would that be a "terminal" cross or would those heifers make good replacements?
 

Caustic Burno

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I like the brindle but the salebarn does not! I guess that's a big part of my original question. How many calves would you expect to be "off colored"???

Also would that be a "terminal" cross or would those heifers make good replacements?
Salebarn loves brindle if it’s a F-1 Tiger Hereford/ Brahman cross. That heifer will bring top dollar on any sale in Texas.
 

Lucky_P

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If any of the cows are red carriers(heterozygous black), potentially half the calves from them are gonna be brindle/wild color. F1 black baldy cows... gonna all be red carriers... higher % Angus baldies... who knows?
Salebarn dock on those Braunvieh-cross steers is legalized theft - they grow well, have great muscling, but marble and grade like nobody's business.

Heck no, they're not 'terminal'. Those would potentially be some of the most productive, trouble-free, long-lived cows you could produce.
 

Warren Allison

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I like the brindle but the salebarn does not! I guess that's a big part of my original question. How many calves would you expect to be "off colored"???

Also would that be a "terminal" cross or would those heifers make good replacements?
Some people call about any mix of a white face and a black bovine a black baldy , but a true Black Baldy is 1/2 Hereford and 1/2 Angus, so they will be heterazygous for black. Half of your calves will be black, and the other half will be whatever color a Hereford x Braunvieh is.
 
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3ECATTLE

3ECATTLE

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Thanks! The cows in question would be half hereford half black angus mamas.

If I were to retain heifers from these cows and braunvieh bull to start replacing the mix of different cows I currently have what bull would I need to put on them to maximize the calves as far as salebarn goals??

I think a 2 pasture setup would be a good strategic move for me if all works out with lease and obtaining cows for it. And then use one to keep the other in constant supply of good mamas that I know everything about and use those mamas to produce higher quality heavy calves to mash down the scales!?

Atleast it sounds good in my head!???
 

Lucky_P

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Well, if you want black calves... probably a good Angus or black Simmental/SimAngus bull over those halfblood Braunvieh heifers would be the way I'd go. The heifers I calved out were bred to a homo black pb Simmental bull... all calves were 'Angus black'.
But... there are a few homo black purebred Braunvieh bulls out there...

Found a photos of some of my Braunvieh-cross heifers. These two are full sibs, a year apart, out of a little red-carrier 7/8 Angus cow (Gardens Wave daughter); her two calves prior to these two girls were solid red Shorthorn sired heifers. The cow on the left was nursing her first calf at the time this photo was shot, so not quite in as good body condition as her early-bred sister.
1627254423244.jpeg
 
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Lucky_P

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Not all 'black' calves sired by fullblood or purebred Braunvieh will be 'Angus black'. These two heifers (as well as the two brindles and two wild-color cows) are daughters of the fullblood bull Silverwood Dragon 4Y, noted for making fantastic daughters - but their steer counterparts were scale-mashing monsters, too!
This scurred cow and yearling heifer both exhibit typical 'Braunvieh black' seen in halfbloods... they're not really sunburned, or suffering copper deficiency... they just are not 'Angus black'. IDK if the wild-color gene modifies black in some manner... it's not really like a Simmental or Charolais color dilution/inhibition... but not true 'Angus black'.
1627256905953.jpeg
1627256952119.jpeg
 
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3ECATTLE

3ECATTLE

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I like all of those alot! I'm very excited to try and get this idea in motion and see what happens!

Also nervous about a different bull I've always used hereford bulls and really like how gentle and laid back the 2 I've had have been. I've heard so many horror stories about bulls that are a handful and so hot headed they didn't want you walking thru them out in pasture!
 

Warren Allison

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The best bull to breed those black baldies to, to get the best replacement heifers....either for you to retain or for you to sell...and to get top dollar for your steers, would be Brangus.
If you are fond of red, then get a Braford. Again, excellent replacement heifers for you or to sell , and the black steers out of the cross would bring top dollar.
Or, where you are, you could breed to a Brahma bull. Excellent heifers for you to retain or to sell, and an F1 Baldy x Brahma steer wouldn't get beat up too bad at the sale, especially the black ones. The heifers, if you chose to sell some, would bring top dollar as well. Brahma bull x Hereford cow is the best F1 cross that yields the maximum heteratosis, especially with the bull calves. Brahma bull X Angus cow is the F1 Brahma cross that maximizes heteratosis the 2nd best. So, Brahma bull x Black Baldy would work out great.

With only 8-10 cows, have you thought about AI? With trying to build your herd with heifers from these 8-10 cows, you could use sexed semen and get all heifers. Just a thought.
 

Lucky_P

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My Braunvieh bulls were in the liquid Nitrogen tank, so I can't speak to their docility, though I've corresponded at length with the owner of Dragon and he was puppy-dog gentle. They had some Northstar Vernon (the other BV bull we used) offspring that were a little 'hot'... and she warned me about that - but they also had a full sib sister to Vernon, that was virtually a pet.
None of the heifers we kept were anything but gentle... but we'd spent 20 years culling out any wild or crazy genetics from our herd.

I won't say some Brahman influence is not something to consider for you in SC. Growing up in south AL... I used to think (40 yrs ago) that all cows oughta be at least 1/4, if not 1/2 Brahman. But... I moved north to TN to practice vet medicine... and the more I worked with them(mostly Beefmasters & Santa Gertrudis), the less I wanted... and, up here in KY (and MO before here)... we don't really need any 'ear'... but... I still like the looks of 'em.
But... I like Bloodhounds and Nubian goats, too, if that tells you anything.

But... today, here, I'd take a Braunvieh bull any day.
 
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3ECATTLE

3ECATTLE

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I haven't really put much thought into AIing them. Really just don't know enough about the process I guess and just assumed it would be pretty costly honestly. But definitely something to think about and do some research on!

My inlaws have alot of brahma influence in their cows and run some hereford and some braford bulls (much larger operation than myself) and I do really like the ear their cows carry and overall look of them BUT......

Ive also had the not so pleasant first hand experience in tight quarters with them and they don't play well with others (me!) So while I do absolutely see obvious pros to brahma influence I usually work with my cows alone or with my wife and I really put ALOT of focus on keeping docility and ease of handling in my few cows! But in a way the thought of AIing calm easing going mamas to brahma or f1 brahma cross bulls could very possibly be the way to go since the calves I would think would be level headed having only being with calm level headed cows!????
 
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3ECATTLE

3ECATTLE

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I haven't really put much thought into AIing them. Really just don't know enough about the process I guess and just assumed it would be pretty costly honestly. But definitely something to think about and do some research on!

My inlaws have alot of brahma influence in their cows and run some hereford and some braford bulls (much larger operation than myself) and I do really like the ear their cows carry and overall look of them BUT......

Ive also had the not so pleasant first hand experience in tight quarters with them and they don't play well with others (me!) So while I do absolutely see obvious pros to brahma influence I usually work with my cows alone or with my wife and I really put ALOT of focus on keeping docility and ease of handling in my few cows! But in a way the thought of AIing calm easing going mamas to brahma or f1 brahma cross bulls could very possibly be the way to go since the calves I would think would be level headed having only being with calm level headed cows!????
 

tburkepa

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I'll let you know in the spring how my Braunvieh and hereford cross works out. I also have red and black angus so I'll see how he works on them. As for docility, I can walk up to him in the pasture and scratch his back and he also takes horse treats out of your hand.
 

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tburkepa

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And is this picture what you all consider "box of crayons" in the field? Funny thing is that most of the reds came out of black angus bull and black mommas. I honestly don't care as I like the variety and have been selling off the farm anyways so the color hasn't been a big drawback, yet...
 

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Lucky_P

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tburkepa,
I'm pretty sure you'll be VERY satisfied with what you get from that breeding. And... if you're selling directly off the farm, your clients will be getting some good quality animals &/or beef.
Hope you'll show us some photos when the calves start hitting the ground and growing!

Herd looks a lot like mine was... reds, blacks, baldies, yellows, grays.
We were AIing individual top-producing cows... most were black/black baldy, but quite a few were red-carriers... so we got more brindles & wild-color calves than blacks.
 

WFfarm

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I think there is a big Braunvieh breeder in western NC. Not sure where you are in SC. On their website they had a few black Angus/Braunvieh cross bulls available too. They had a program that if you bought a bull from them, they would buy all of your feeder calves their bull sired. Not sure how that all works out, but it might help out with any salebarn discounts you're worried about.

I'd like to try out a Braunvieh bull on out black SimmAngus cows. I remember a dozen years ago they were reporting how Braunvieh out performed Angus in carcass quality. Must not have gotten the traction as "Certified Angus"
 

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