Just a few thoughts on herd building

[wbvs58]

As a sequel to @Ky hills thread on herd rebuilding I feel fortunate in that I have not had to by bulls in the development of my herd which I started 18 years ago. My cow herd now numbers 40 cows and I have between 6-10 heifers joining the herd each year so the same number of cows have to leave.. I will have at least 50% of calves by AI sires, usually North American Angus sires and the bulls I use, usually two are home bred, a yearling for the heifers and a two year old for the main herd. The two year old gets sold and the yearling graduates to the main herd the following year so they are not specific heifer bulls. A small herd like mine would normally only require 1 bull which exposes you to a lot of risk even if you pay a lot of money for a bull. You have to be on the ball to make sure the bull produces the calves you want in the time period you want. You run the risk of breeding injuries or some other failure resulting in you having to scramble for a replacement. I try to have about 3-4 AI bulls in my tank each year and I try to use bulls for 3 years running though there will be some that get discarded after just one year. This gives me plenty of heifers to choose from. I think the most important part of herd building is your heifer selection and having a good eye for what needs to leave the herd at the other end. Each year picking what to cull gets harder and harder, there are usually a couple that pick themselves but trying to find the rest that need to go is getting more difficult each year. These days I am trying to put more pressure on fertility, I want all my calves born in July so this helps with culling selection. I did have a few stragglers in August this year but hopefully this will get tidied up this year.
I just worked my herd today to vaccinate and put the rfid tags in the calves and of course weigh them. My calving is predominantly July and weaning at the end of our summer in early March. I aim to have calves at least 300kg (660 lbs) at weaning but of course there will be some stragglers mostly due to age. At todays weighing I had 6 over 200kg (440lbs) so they are well on the way to the target weight by the end of summer. Most were in the 150-200 kg range and a few stragglers around the 125kg mark.
I think if you are serious about building a quality herd you really do need a set of scales to measure. It doesn't need fancy computer programs to record, just a notebook that allows you to go back and compare to previous years.
The only way new genetics comes into my herd is in liquid nitrogen, I strongly believe in biosecurity.
My conditions can be tough and rough but calves do well on my place and my Angus sell well at our weaner sale in March. An even pen of steers I put in will usually sell in the 2nd row straight after the EU eligible calves. Lesser calves go into the temporary pens out the back and get sold last so I think it is important to have even well grown calves to get that top billing.

Ken

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Great comments.
I don't think you said, what is your timing for AI, then turn bulls out?

 

[wbvs58]

Jeanne these days the heifers get synchronised and get AI'd then patches put on for any rebreeds and straight out with a bull a few days later. Hopefully I pick up them up with the 2nd breeding, any that are then by the bull are good candidates for culling as they will fall outside of my calving in July.
The cows just get one round then out with the bull after a couple of days. I synchronise them in batches of 10 doing a new batch every 3rd day to reduce my workload though it becomes pretty hectic for a week or two there. I do the heifers about a week before the cows so I will have some calving the last week of June.


Ken

 

[Silver]

Ken, do you still feel that you get better results from AI than you do from your own or could get from a walking bull? Or do you use AI to bring in new genetics solely for bio security reasons?

 

[blackladies]

As a sequel to @Ky hills thread on herd rebuilding I feel fortunate in that I have not had to by bulls in the development of my herd which I started 18 years ago. My cow herd now numbers 40 cows and I have between 6-10 heifers joining the herd each year so the same number of cows have to leave.. I will have at least 50% of calves by AI sires, usually North American Angus sires and the bulls I use, usually two are home bred, a yearling for the heifers and a two year old for the main herd. The two year old gets sold and the yearling graduates to the main herd the following year so they are not specific heifer bulls. A small herd like mine would normally only require 1 bull which exposes you to a lot of risk even if you pay a lot of money for a bull. You have to be on the ball to make sure the bull produces the calves you want in the time period you want. You run the risk of breeding injuries or some other failure resulting in you having to scramble for a replacement. I try to have about 3-4 AI bulls in my tank each year and I try to use bulls for 3 years running though there will be some that get discarded after just one year. This gives me plenty of heifers to choose from. I think the most important part of herd building is your heifer selection and having a good eye for what needs to leave the herd at the other end. Each year picking what to cull gets harder and harder, there are usually a couple that pick themselves but trying to find the rest that need to go is getting more difficult each year. These days I am trying to put more pressure on fertility, I want all my calves born in July so this helps with culling selection. I did have a few stragglers in August this year but hopefully this will get tidied up this year.
I just worked my herd today to vaccinate and put the rfid tags in the calves and of course weigh them. My calving is predominantly July and weaning at the end of our summer in early March. I aim to have calves at least 300kg (660 lbs) at weaning but of course there will be some stragglers mostly due to age. At todays weighing I had 6 over 200kg (440lbs) so they are well on the way to the target weight by the end of summer. Most were in the 150-200 kg range and a few stragglers around the 125kg mark.
I think if you are serious about building a quality herd you really do need a set of scales to measure. It doesn't need fancy computer programs to record, just a notebook that allows you to go back and compare to previous years.
The only way new genetics comes into my herd is in liquid nitrogen, I strongly believe in biosecurity.
My conditions can be tough and rough but calves do well on my place and my Angus sell well at our weaner sale in March. An even pen of steers I put in will usually sell in the 2nd row straight after the EU eligible calves. Lesser calves go into the temporary pens out the back and get sold last so I think it is important to have even well grown calves to get that top billing.

Ken

How often do the cows not settle on the first go? I am really interested in AI because I can get top genetics without paying for the bull, but worried about it not taking.

 

[Travlr]

How often do the cows not settle on the first go? I am really interested in AI because I can get top genetics without paying for the bull, but worried about it not taking.

I've had great luck with AI. A lot of it has to do with the tech doing it. One of the best I've used was employed by the company selling semen and he also had a dairy. He really knew what he was doing. Selling bred replacement heifers and synchronizing it was common to get better than 80%+ conception rates. The last batch of twenty we got nineteen settled and the odd one was injured and never bred.

 

[blackladies]

I've had great luck with AI. A lot of it has to do with the tech doing it. One of the best I've used was employed by the company selling semen and he also had a dairy. He really knew what he was doing. Selling bred replacement heifers and synchronizing it was common to get better than 80%+ conception rates. The last batch of twenty we got nineteen settled and the odd one was injured and never bred.

Finding the right person is key like anything else. Hopefully learn from them and then do it yourself.

 

[kenny thomas]

Finding the right person is key like anything else. Hopefully learn from them and then do it yourself.

For some people its easy, for me i never did get the hang of it. I took an AI class and tried for a while. Finally i partnered with a friend and i synced both mine and his and done everything except the AI. He done the AI.

 

[wbvs58]

Ken, do you still feel that you get better results from AI than you do from your own or could get from a walking bull? Or do you use AI to bring in new genetics solely for bio security reasons?

I'm usually very happy with the calves from my own bulls, I really like the calves from my bull I used last year and have used him again this year and no I probably don't see much difference between mine and the AI sires. I have gone away from selling bulls as I don't like the marketing and I got into this to produce females for myself in the first place. I do have people chasing my surplus heifers each year.
When I started my herd I did acquire a short lived problem with BVD and once that was sorted I could not see the point of bringing in cattle from unknown sources. I did bring in my registered cows from the one known and trusted breeder over several years but have not introduced any more for about 10 years and I see no need to other than in the nitrogen tank.
I do feel what I do spreads the risk of buying a bull that does not live up to expectations or goes bad on you. I think this is one of the problems that @Ky hills has had with his herd. Also this is a bit of a game for me that I enjoy and trying different bulls is a lot of fun and hopefully I see the results over the weigh bridge and eye candy in the paddock.

Ken

 

[wbvs58]

How often do the cows not settle on the first go? I am really interested in AI because I can get top genetics without paying for the bull, but worried about it not taking.

Last year I got about 60 % to settle and all the inseminations were very easy. This year I really struggled and I will be happy if I get 50%. Maybe it is because I am getting old, the tips of my fingers on my right hand don't have any feeling now and my hands are certainly getting weaker but I do find the cows themselves vary from year to year, maybe it is the quality of the feed they are on. This year has been a good clover year and maybe the oestrogen affects the tone of the uterus/cervix. I accept that I may not be as capable as I get older but I won't be hiring it out as it is difficult to get someone here and I enjoy doing it, I have good bulls to get what I miss.

Ken

 

[wbvs58]

For some people its easy, for me i never did get the hang of it. I took an AI class and tried for a while. Finally i partnered with a friend and i synced both mine and his and done everything except the AI. He done the AI.

Kenny, I'm not a natural with it but have persevered and got some reasonable results on my own cows at my own place. I like being alone when I do my cows, I don't like the pressure of someone watching and asking questions. I have tried doing some for friends but have been hopeless in a different environment, different position/height behind the cow puts me off but that is just me. I know what you mean.

Ken

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Finding the right person is key like anything else. Hopefully learn from them and then do it yourself.

If not relying on sync timing, heat detection is the MOST important.
Edit: 80% is on the HIGH side of conception, especially on TIMED AI. Most get more like 60-65%. I don't really do a sync program.

 

[Ky hills]

I'm usually very happy with the calves from my own bulls, I really like the calves from my bull I used last year and have used him again this year and no I probably don't see much difference between mine and the AI sires. I have gone away from selling bulls as I don't like the marketing and I got into this to produce females for myself in the first place. I do have people chasing my surplus heifers each year.
When I started my herd I did acquire a short lived problem with BVD and once that was sorted I could not see the point of bringing in cattle from unknown sources. I did bring in my registered cows from the one known and trusted breeder over several years but have not introduced any more for about 10 years and I see no need to other than in the nitrogen tank.
I do feel what I do spreads the risk of buying a bull that does not live up to expectations or goes bad on you. I think this is one of the problems that @Ky hills has had with his herd. Also this is a bit of a game for me that I enjoy and trying different bulls is a lot of fun and hopefully I see the results over the weigh bridge and eye candy in the paddock.

Ken

Yes, that has been probably the biggest contributor problem wise that I've had.
I don't do AI myself, several reasons why health wise I just don't feel I'm up to it.
Years ago we had a great local AI tech that was an ABS rep. He was also a good friend so. Getting our registered Charolais cows bred was usually a very successful venture with very high conception rates. Then when I raised dairy calves he AI bred the nurse cows.
I kept up with getting AI work done when doing bred heifers. By that time the techs and protocol had changed and we doing timed AI. I was buying 50 to 70 straws to breed that number of heifers plus the few registered Angus cows I had at that time.
The best we got got percentage wise was 50% and it went down from there to 20%. I was still having to maintain the same amount of cleanup bulls, so AI became useless to me.
I did like some of the calves that we got via AI, but couldn't justify the effort and expense just to get a few calves from it.
We have. always tried to buy what we thought were good bulls, within a budget. We e had a lot of problem with bulls and so I had started raising my own with a small registered herd. We kept a registered bull from my last year of AI. Then bought a bred registered heifer that retained her bull calf from. That bull was probably the start of our milk production problem. It took a long time to realize that there was a milk issue with some of his daughters, by that time we had retained a mostly Angus maternal grandson of that bull from good milking Angus cattle in his pedigree. Never really intended to use that crossbred bull but just as a spare. Turns out he had to be used because of an injury to his registered Angus sire. Had an unexpectedly unusual amount of trouble with bulls brought in to replace him, hence why so many directions. 3 purchased bulls and only four calves later from one of them and we still were using the bull that passed on no milking daughters but we didn’t know that yet at that point. Finally once we had enough heifers calving by him that we figured it out and culled him, along with all daughters except the few that do milk, All of this years calf crop were sold, trying to purge that line. No heifers will be retained from even his productive daughters just in case.
Hopefully we are on a better track now, just in purging that line.
You have a good herd of Angus cattle, and what you are doing with AI is working well for you.

 

[wbvs58]

Yes, that has been probably the biggest contributor problem wise that I've had.
I don't do AI myself, several reasons why health wise I just don't feel I'm up to it.
Years ago we had a great local AI tech that was an ABS rep. He was also a good friend so. Getting our registered Charolais cows bred was usually a very successful venture with very high conception rates. Then when I raised dairy calves he AI bred the nurse cows.
I kept up with getting AI work done when doing bred heifers. By that time the techs and protocol had changed and we doing timed AI. I was buying 50 to 70 straws to breed that number of heifers plus the few registered Angus cows I had at that time.
The best we got got percentage wise was 50% and it went down from there to 20%. I was still having to maintain the same amount of cleanup bulls, so AI became useless to me.
I did like some of the calves that we got via AI, but couldn't justify the effort and expense just to get a few calves from it.
We have. always tried to buy what we thought were good bulls, within a budget. We e had a lot of problem with bulls and so I had started raising my own with a small registered herd. We kept a registered bull from my last year of AI. Then bought a bred registered heifer that retained her bull calf from. That bull was probably the start of our milk production problem. It took a long time to realize that there was a milk issue with some of his daughters, by that time we had retained a mostly Angus maternal grandson of that bull from good milking Angus cattle in his pedigree. Never really intended to use that crossbred bull but just as a spare. Turns out he had to be used because of an injury to his registered Angus sire. Had an unexpectedly unusual amount of trouble with bulls brought in to replace him, hence why so many directions. 3 purchased bulls and only four calves later from one of them and we still were using the bull that passed on no milking daughters but we didn't know that yet at that point. Finally once we had enough heifers calving by him that we figured it out and culled him, along with all daughters except the few that do milk, All of this years calf crop were sold, trying to purge that line. No heifers will be retained from even his productive daughters just in case.
Hopefully we are on a better track now, just in purging that line.
You have a good herd of Angus cattle, and what you are doing with AI is working well for you.

It is a game that I enjoy and when you are retired your biggest expense is entertainment, this certainly keeps me entertained.

Ken

 

[wbvs58]

I check on the heifers about twice a week. They are in my most distant paddock and I have to lead them up here about 1 km along a narrow track through scrub so I take a bucket of feed to keep their faith in me and the blue feed trough in the back of the Mule and they will follow me anywhere.


Ken

 

[Travlr]

I check on the heifers about twice a week. They are in my most distant paddock and I have to lead them up here about 1 km along a narrow track through scrub so I take a bucket of feed to keep their faith in me and the blue feed trough in the back of the Mule and they will follow me anywhere.


Ken

It just occurred to me that your predator problems are not the same as those of us in the States...

What do you lose animals to?

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Ken, heifers look great. Bull looks good to.
Some of the heifers have heat detection tags. You place your a lot further back than I do. Although, I occasionally place 1 back near tail head on super tall/big cows.

 

[Warren Allison]

I check on the heifers about twice a week. They are in my most distant paddock and I have to lead them up here about 1 km along a narrow track through scrub so I take a bucket of feed to keep their faith in me and the blue feed trough in the back of the Mule and they will follow me anywhere.


Ken

Nice looking bunch of young ladies, there, Ken. How old are these? You had mentioned you keep 40 head in your herd...how many acres do you have?

 

[wbvs58]

It just occurred to me that your predator problems are not the same as those of us in the States...

What do you lose animals to?

Dingoes, wild dogs are the only threat but rare on cattle here. There are plenty of dogs going through the back up here but haven't caused a problem with grown cattle so far. We have a fellow over the back that sets a lot of traps as he has sheep so that helps to keep the numbers down. You can see in the video the heavily timbered country in the back there, it is about 600 acres and part of what I winter the cows on after weaning. I do not let them calve in there for management of the calves and possibility of dogs while they are off by themselves.

Ken

 

[wbvs58]

Ken, heifers look great. Bull looks good to.
Some of the heifers have heat detection tags. You place your a lot further back than I do. Although, I occasionally place 1 back near tail head on super tall/big cows.

Thanks Jeanne. I put the tags there to give best chance of detection with like sized heifers mounting. I haven't had much experience using them so I might try your advice and put them further forward next time. These have been on for about a month now and were put on about 4 days prior to when they were due back on after the 1st insemination to try and catch the ones I missed. I did pick up 2 so was happy with that but no doubt there would be others. The bull is the same age as the heifers so not too big in stature yet. Once up the back here there are a lot of tree opportunities to get under so the tags get a bit of colour but not uniform blanked out. If I put the a bit further forward it might save a bit from the branches.

Ken